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Thread: "Boxing: The Martial Artist's Reality Check"

  1. #1
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    Default "Boxing: The Martial Artist's Reality Check"

    Here is an interesting article on Boxing v. Karate/Kung Fu. Click on this link and check out pages 4 and 5.

    http://www.ymaa.com/pdf/YMAANEWS63.pdf

    Enjoy an I look forward to your comments.

    All the best,
    Tyrone Turner
    Aspiring warrior-scholar
    Queens, NY

  2. #2
    shadow42 Guest

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    I would have to say the author is pretty much correct. Its sad to say, but very few Traditional MA schools/students train as intensely as any boxer, let alone competing pro boxers. People who argue against this say that "boxing has rules" which make it less effective, but if you've ver fought a boxer in a no rules situation, he/she is generally intelligent enough to know your not going to follow those rules, and one should never think that they wont throw in an 'illegal' knee, elbow, headbutt, throw what have you. I do fully believe that if a Traditional MA practioner trains like a boxer (Intense endurance/physical conditioning, hours of practice, eat right, spar a lot...) they can be just as effective, if not more so. It is unfortunate that many MA schools today do not offer this kind of training. In my dojo we tend to do a lot of boxing drills and endurance workouts, and in the long run it can really only help your game, so to speak.

  3. #3
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    Default Trad. MA vs Boxes

    Originally posted by shadow42
    I would have to say the author is pretty much correct. Its sad to say, but very few Traditional MA schools/students train as intensely as any boxer, let alone competing pro boxers.
    Eh?

    OK, true. I agree completely. Most budo students and teacher DON'T train like a pro boxer.

    Why the HECK would I WANT to train like that? I like my beer and good food and I HATE running. When I got out of the Army, I swore neve to run again unless someone was shooting at me.

    I don't care about combat-effectiveness (been there, done that, I was a soldier). I don't care about competition either (also done that and found it lots of fun, but not something I wanna do for the rest of my life -- I HAVE a life, you see).

    What I DO like about my training is the personal challenge. The internal things: the historical knowledge, the spiritual insights, the sheer joy of learning and training.

    Combat? Overrated. death rate (not to mention injury) is too high for my tastes.

    Street-effectiveness? I can outshoot most folks, know how to use all kinds of improvised and standard weaponry. Been trained to fight dirty by some of the best. Still alive, too. And plan to stay that way. Avoidance is the best self-defence.

    I LIKE kata. I enjoy the interplay of two people pushing a form to it's limits. Exploring the depths of the form and what it MEANT, what it MEANS and how it fits together in the whole gestalt of the system.

    I enjoy the tradition and etiquette. I enjoy the history and philosophy.

    Can I kick butt? If I need to. I don't WANT to. Don't generally NEED to. Thank the Gods. I've walked the streets of Wash., DC; of Indianapolis (sound trivial? check the police stats!); of Memphis, TN; Berlin; a few more exotic places whose name ya'll might recognize, but only if you'd been there. Mainly, the worst hassle I ever had (unless I was SEEKING mischief) was someone panhandling or bumming a cigarette.

    Would I use classical technique in a fight? HELL no. I'd fight dirty, fast and wicked. Some of that classical crap, however, has taught me some VERY interesting things, some of which might not be apparent to the casual observer or to someone who'd never studied deeply enough.

    Geez, last time that I WAS in a fight, I was in the Army (been out, counting fingers and toes) um, 15 years??? More or less.

    Train like a boxer? No thanks. I train, I live, I enjoy, I learn.

    You wanna be a Spartan, get thee to Boot Camp. I'm fond of my dojo, my regimen, my life.

    Sigh. Youth, the old men say, is wasted on the young ...

    Chuck
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

  4. #4
    shadow42 Guest

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    oh my...
    well that whole comment was more directed towards the idea that training in a traditional system the way many people/schools do and fighting a boxer that trains the way most boxers/gyms do, the boxer would generally have a better chance because of the training he endures. If you couldn't give a rats ass about it, then by all means continue drinking beer in a stationary non-running position

    Also, the aspects that you enjoy that you mentioned: internal trainging, history, joy of learning and personal challenges, are the reason I practice ninpo, and not boxing. Im not suggesting anyone trade in their dogi for some boxing trunks and do away with everything that makes a classical system classical, just that if its what your looking for, a boxers training regimen can give you some of the edge you may be seeking. and if your not seeking it, thats even easier!

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    Exclamation

    Train like a boxer — end up like Ali???

    Joe Svinth keeps a list.......
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

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    Default

    For the list that Doug refers to, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_a_0700.htm .

    BTW, Toughman resulted in two deaths just a couple weeks ago. (Separate fights held September 14, 2002, in Idaho and Texas.)

  7. #7
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    Default

    People in large part come to the martial arts to learn to fight. That is not on the other hand why most of them stay. If you think about training in the martial arts in purely practical terms, what are the odds of getting injured in a violent confrontation compared to the odds of getting hurt during training for the average suburbanite? If training costs are about $50 a month or so, what are the odds that you will be mugged for $600 dollars a year? From a purely practical standpoint you are better off staying out of the bad side of town as a self-defense strategy. That is the same reason that the idea of Budo as opposed to BuJutsu came about in the first place. The BuJutsu grew out of necessity. As the need for actual fighting ability dropped, the arts changed their focus. Budo was the result. Most martial artists are not interested in training as if their life depended on it, because it doesn’t.

    Matt Larsen
    1. The defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy.
    2. The winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.

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    Smile

    The whole discussion is irrelevant really....

    A martial artist who is not prepared to take life in order to survive will not win in true combat.

    A boxer who is not prepared to take life in order to survive will not win in true combat.

    A human being who is not prepared to take life in order to survive will not win in true combat.

    This discussion is for you to have with yourself.

    Webmaster
    http://www.goshinjutsu.com

  9. #9
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    I think it was Bear Bryant that said it is not the will to win that matters, but the will to prepare to win. There are many who are willing to do anything to survive who nun the less do not because they brought there willingness to the test after it ceased to be a factor.

    If you train in the martial arts as a hobby, because you enjoy the cultural aspect, you find it interesting, like the competition, etc. that’s great. You should not on the other hand kid yourself into thinking that you are a warrior.

    A warrior trains hard not because he enjoys it, but because when it comes down to who is going to light who on fire, he wants to be the lighter and not the lightee.

    Matt Larsen
    1. The defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy.
    2. The winner of the hand-to-hand fight in combat is the one whose buddy shows up first with a gun.

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    I've said it before and I'll probably say it again.

    Martial arts (and, truth be told, most self-defense classes) really don’t teach one much more than how to win the fights one had in elementary school. Even really good force-on-force training isn’t all that much better.

    Heresy, you say. Well, look at it like this. In a martial arts or self-defense class, when somebody starts bleeding on the mats, usually somebody else goes running for the bleach. On the other hand, in the belly of the B-17 or B-24, we have Randall Jarrell’s "Death of the Ball Turret Gunner":

    From my mother’s sleep I fell into the State,
    And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
    Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
    I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
    When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.

    Stress disorders and suicide watches aren’t all that common after tournaments or class, either. Yet behind the Western Front of 1917, we have Siegfried Sassoon’s "Survivors":

    No doubt they’ll soon get well; the shock and strain
    Have caused their stammering, disconnected talk.
    Of course they’re ‘longing to go out again,’ —
    These boys with old, scared faces, learning to walk.
    They’ll soon forget their haunted nights; their cowed
    Subjection to the ghosts of friends who died,—
    Their dreams that drip with murder; and they’ll be proud
    Of glorious war that shatter’d all their pride...
    Men who went out to battle, grim and glad;
    Children, with eyes that hate you, broken and mad.

    And no matter how badly you screw up in a tournament, a street fight, or whatever, the result is usually not like Towton in 1461, where after the battle, the prisoners were rounded up so that the executioner could hit them in the head with an ax or sword before somebody else cut off their noses and ears and dumped the naked bodies into a ditch.

    Now, this is NOT to say that martial arts or self-defense training is useless. Far from it. Nonetheless, even the best training and the most harrowing simulation is still just a simulation, and the following morning, hopefully everyone involved is still alive, not seriously injured, and free of post traumatic stress disorders. Combat operates in a different paradigm, and (at least in my opinion) confusing the training with the reality is likely to cause problems all the way around.

  11. #11
    hakuda Guest

    Default just a thought

    This is just a thought and it may not count for much, but I've been in the martial arts for 20 yrs and have only been in 3 altercations that came to physical contact. Fortunatly I walked away from all 3. Of those 3 only 1 had my life on the line and it was in the line of duty. The one thing that the arts has over boxing is (depending on your instructor and style), is that we are taught to have humility and respect towards others. Generally that's enough to keep you out of a fight. Unless you're like me and have a job that sometimes envolves people that have no concept of respect for anyone and refuse to listen to anyone trying to be respectful towards them. I have used the phsycological aspect of martial arts to my advantage more times than I can count. Like I said, just a quick thought on an interesting topic.

    Thomas Wall

  12. #12
    jellyman Guest

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    A boxer may be smart enough to use knees etc in a 'street fight', but will they be as effective as those delivered from a trained MA stylist, and more importantly, will he be prepared for those attacks coming from a trained MA stylist? The typical boxer's stance and footwork don't acknowledge the vulnerability of the knees and groin as targets to be hit - knees too straight, groin often exposed, etc.

    Not to mention throwing and grappling, attacks from the back, etc.

    I work out with an ex-pro boxer who's in plenty good shape. We spar with no rules, except the rule of mercy (i. e. don't try to seriously hurt each other). He is not invincible, although I'd never get into a fist-trading session with him.

    Most people who denigrate the dirty stuff have never had it done to them. If the MA stylist has sparred with dirty stuff, the reflexes developed to defend against it will give him a distinct edge over the sportsman at least in that aspect.

  13. #13
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    Thumbs up Yes........

    Training with different partners coming from different disciplines, sports or other MA, would be a VERY important complement to your study. Boxers are people with a deep physical preparation and endurance. Never saw fists so fast, well our Karate sensei at the Dojo was really fast too...dealing with a boxer in a spar session will be exhausting.....i tried...yuk,yuk,yuk amazing experience.
    Unorthodox attacks in a street fighting or how to deal with trained people is a subject of another topic, don´t you think?
    Boxers, and all the physical practitioners of sports, are better ,physically, trained than some Martial Artists if we focus on endurance. How you adress your training in MA varies from teacher to teacher. To include physical exercises and the importance of those excercises and "weight" of physical condition varies too from Dojo to Dojo...obviously when you´ll be 45 or 50 yrs old your physical condition won´t be the same...MA GOT to keep aplying the principles of the Art regardless of age and physical condition acondittioning the aplication to your posibilities...if your training depends, only, of your physical condition something´s wrong, well that´s only my opinion. That´s why some people don´t understand that not ALL techniques works with everybody and try to apply the technique compensating with pshysical strength...
    I´m not trying to say that, when you´ll be a 70 yrs old man, you can keep kicking the ass of a burglar or apply a powerful technique on your oponent...i´m just saying that probably you can still being able to apply some of the principles you´ve trained over the years of MA study, as well to rise your arms and dodge strikes (not as fast as when you was young) as when you was a boxer...don´t you think?
    Regards,
    Óscar Recio
    PS: Matt, love your replies.
    "Any man who refers to himself as a "master" or knowlingly allows his students to refer to him as a master, isn´t one"
    Takamura Yukiyoshi
    http://www.dojotanabe.com

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    Fatigue has many of the same deleterious effects as age. It’s a good idea from a combatives perspective to assume that your fight will happen at the end of a twenty-mile approach march. There are many techniques and strategies that work fine when you are fresh that become impossible with fatigue. If we train to be tired when the fight comes, age should affect our abilities less than could be the case if we rely on our fitness.

    I don’t mean to lesson the importance of fitness. One thing that is absolutely true is that you will be taxed physically by combat. Fitness cannot be stressed enough. It should not however be the foundation of your technique.

    I also think that our approach to fitness should be more towards being healthy. The model is too often the performance model. What I mean by that is we often approach fitness as if we were preparing for the big game. Increasing our performance level and our fitness are two different things.

    I have a friend who was the coach of the Iowa Judo club at the same time that Dan Gable was there. They are illustrative of the two approaches to training that I am talking about. Gable was one of the most physically capable men on the planet during his heyday. Today however, probably at least in part because of his training regimen, he has crippling arthritis. My friend, although he is older than Gable, is still able to perform athletically. He never had the peak that Gable did, but he is still going because he placed being healthy before performance in his training.

    Matt Larsen

  15. #15
    jellyman Guest

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    If the MA stylist has sparred with dirty stuff, the reflexes developed to defend against it will give him a distinct edge over the sportsman at least in that aspect.
    If there's no sparring though, none of that counts.

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