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Thread: Rank

  1. #16
    hector gomez Guest

    Default It's a shame

    It's a shame that this type of mentality is so prevelant especially in certain areas of traditional martial arts,I actually think it is a major preventive stumbling block to learning real self defense skills.


    I would be the first person that would totaly be ok if the ranking system was completely abolished,then all of these so called 4th,5th and 6th dans would have to be judged soley on their ability to perform
    not on what some bogus certificate says on their wall.

    I don't know about anyone one else but when I go to train at anyone school I never go there with the intention of checking out his credentials,I simply go to train and if after I workout, I conclude that there is something to learn then that is the only worthwhile
    evaluation I need on someones skills.

    The average common person with no martial arts experinece that visits a school for the first time cannot distinquish today if an instructor is competent or not,maybe we should re-educate the general public on what to really look for instead of just the color of someones belt,this in the long run would serve the public far better than having to figure out who is legite and who is not.


    Jim,

    If I were to go by your analogy and open up the yellow pages I can go to atleast 20 schools in my area that have a so called legitimate rank under different organizations that does not guanrantee me self defense proficiency one bit.

    BJJ has strict and hard requirements to avoid just that,I know many blues,purples and brown belts in bjj that are 10 times more qualified to teach self defense than any of the legitimate instructors in the yellow page ads with legitimate rank and all.


    Hector Gomez

  2. #17

    Default

    Hector,

    AMEN!!

    Cheers,

    Mike

  3. #18
    hector gomez Guest

    Default yeah

    Right on richard.

    Hector Gomez

  4. #19
    Hissho Guest

    Default Lost in the Shuffle

    >de-cloak<

    Been a while but I wanted to respond here. I think people are getting lost in the color of the belt vs. what the belt signifies within the community. If I might try to respond to Jim's concerns:

    Rank is essentially a pecking order within the group or within the system. For some groups it is based on skill, for some on longevity and loyalty, and in many cases a combination of the above. How the rank is determined is either through testing and having a proven set of basic knowledge, or through a teacher's arbitrarily deciding "you are ready" through his own observations and how you compare to others of your relative skill level, those above you, and in competitive styles how you fare against them in open competition. How the particular rank is "valued" is through the eyes of your peers. The color is immaterial, it is what the rank represents and whether you deserve it or not. Or rather whether OTHERS WITHIN YOUR SYSTEM think you have earned it.

    Jim, if I might make an observation, you seem to be superimposing the rank structure typical to Japanese MA and your own system over that of the BJJ world. It doesn't really apply.

    In the BJJ world, because for the longest time black belts were hard to come by (except maybe in Southern Cali) and all but a very few had Brazilian last names, advancement within the system of colored belts had a much greater cachet than it does in other systems.

    By that I mean until recently, a BJJ blue belt probably had three or more years of training in, directly under a black belt, and had proven himself if not in competition, than in competitive grappling with his peers in the club under the eyes of the instructor. It is, still, a dishonor within BJJ to be "tapped" by a lower belt in jujutsu practice. All the "its just training, no worries" aside, if a purple got tapped by a blue on the mat, unless that blue was about to become a purple, there would be considerable consternation on his part and his seniors and his instructor would be wondering what the hell happened.

    Getting a brown belt rank in under eight or ten years was amazing. Black belt in that frame of time almost unheard of. BJ Penn earned his black belt in something like five years, and proved his right to wear it in BJJ world competition against other black belts. In so doing he earned the nickname "Phenom" because that is exactly how it was viewed.

    This cachet is weakening with "seminar" belt rankings and the broadening dissemination of BJJ as Tim mentioned. But WITHIN the BJJ community, brown and black belts, and even purple to some extent, still mean a great deal. Very few Americans have advanced to that level and when people make those ranks you still see a flood of congratulations on BJJ boards because they recognize the skill level that comes with that level of ranking.

    BJJ practitioners see a brown belt as pretty close to the way a second or third dan level is seen in an art like, say Judo. Blue is called a "coach" rank, and some blue's run study groups, it is a very low teaching rank, but a teaching rank nonetheless if the only other people around are white belts. Outside of certain areas in the US, a lot of BJJ practitioners would be thrilled to be studying with a brown belt, and I don't think any eyebrows would be raised if a brown belt opened his own club and advertised that he taught BJJ. A brown belt, particularly browns that have proven themselves repeatedly in competition against other brown belts, writing a book does NOT raise suspicions in the BJJ community the way it would if a Judo brown belt wrote a book on judo or a karate brown belt did the same. No one would question if a 2 dan or 3 dan judoka, successful in competition, wrote a book about an aspect of judo competition. This book is looked at that way in the BJJ world. On several of the MMA and BJJ boards that I lurk on here and there many have mentioned this book, I don't recall a single person questioning whether a brown belt has the right to write a book on BJJ. In Brazil, they might question it. Here, everyone simply wants to know where they can get a copy.

    Kit LeBlanc

  5. #20
    Jim London Guest

    Cool Answers

    Hi Kit,

    Thank you, I think you answered my question. I wanted to know what constituted a teaching rank in BJJ.

    To the rest of you go back to RMA, and your usual programming. A review of my posts should note that the physical competency of the authors was not my question.

    Jim London.

  6. #21
    jellyman Guest

    Default

    rank is overratted

    but I know what I want for christmas

  7. #22
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    Default

    I've read 'Effortless Combat Throws'.

    It was a great book and inspired me to take up Judo.

    I believe that Mr. Cartmell's huge experience of the Chinese martial arts, and his authorship ability has to be added to his BJJ qualifications when judging his qualifications to write a book of this kind.

    Besides, an author can be abysmal at something in practice, but his written work may be excellent. A book should be judged on its own merits, as much as on its authors.
    Jonathan Adrian Treloar
    Perception is strong, Sight is weak - Musashi
    Right forearm is strong, Sight is weak - Treloar

  8. #23
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    Default

    What people don't understand is how phenomenal Tim Cartmell is with the martial arts. This is a guy who was basically the best student of every teacher he has had, has mastery of COMPLETE systems of tai ji, xingyi, and ba gua and is successful in every type of martial arts competition he has entered (full contact, jiu jitsu, and submissions grappling). As a testament to his teaching abilities, he also produces students who are proven winners in competition. What more can you ask for?

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Lost in the Shuffle

    It is, still, a dishonor within BJJ to be "tapped" by a lower belt in jujutsu practice. All the "its just training, no worries" aside, if a purple got tapped by a blue on the mat, unless that blue was about to become a purple, there would be considerable consternation on his part and his seniors and his instructor would be wondering what the hell happened.


    Not to offend an BJJ people, and I know for a fact that not all BJJ practicioners are like this, but don't you think that the preceding paragraph somewhat lends to this idiotic "Toughguy Jiu-Jitsu" mentality that I tend to see in some of BJJ's students?
    Walt Jennings

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Re: Lost in the Shuffle

    Originally posted by WJ55

    Not to offend an BJJ people, and I know for a fact that not all BJJ practicioners are like this, but don't you think that the preceding paragraph somewhat lends to this idiotic "Toughguy Jiu-Jitsu" mentality that I tend to see in some of BJJ's students?
    Maybe, but it also lends to high quality and integrity of the technical syllabus.
    Rob Erman

  11. #26
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    Default

    The fact is most guys who train Brazilian Jiu Jitsu are tough!

  12. #27
    Jim London Guest

    Lightbulb VS Lower Rank

    It is, still, a dishonor within BJJ to be "tapped" by a lower belt in jujutsu practice. All the "its just training, no worries" aside, if a purple got tapped by a blue on the mat, unless that blue was about to become a purple, there would be considerable consternation on his part and his seniors and his instructor would be wondering what the hell happened.
    This isnt really unique to BJJ, you see it in Judo, and especially in the karate styles (hey even including Shotokan). There is the "tough guy" mentality throughout martial arts, it is just most hugely prevelant in BJJ. Basicly why you get the "I know what I am talking about cause I can beat you up..." response to things. That belongs on the school yard, not in the dojo.

    Most sportsman at the top of their game work with a huge ego, this way they can weather through loosing a match or a game. They continue to believe in themselves even when they loose.

    this idiotic "Toughguy Jiu-Jitsu" mentality that I tend to see in some of BJJ's students?
    Wing Chun guys are the same way, they wander around claiming they practice the ultimate martial art. To expand on your comment, anyone that does this "tough guy act"; is severly risking their credibility. Usually stops coming out when people are actually confident of their technique.

    Jim London.

  13. #28
    jellyman Guest

    Default

    I don't think that's unique to BJJ by any stretch, although I do think it's exacerbated by rank, espcially visible signs of rank. Not that belts <=> fighting for top dog position. In a good club, everybody tries to make everyone else good, so you get better sparring partners, so you get better yourself. However, if in fact you are insecure, you tend to cling to the heirarchy and view every time you tangle with a 'lower' rank as a challenge to your right to wear the belt. This can adversely affect your decision making during fight time.

    That said, I have found that in a rankless style people walking in tend not to listen to you unless you can make whatever you're talking about work on them, in a fashion that convinces them you haven't just used superior athleticism etc., whereas wearing a black belt is sometimes enough to convince the inexperienced that you are an authority.

  14. #29
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    Default

    having the belt system does make it a lot easier when teaching classes.

    over here a blackbelt (at least with the major federations) exam is done before a committee, blackbelts cannot be awarded by the teacher.. I think that this is the best system... (for the belt system that is)


    I've seen a question asked in Jim's direction about who awarded him his blackbelt... how would that have any impact on this discussion?
    Rogier van der Peijl

    REAL SCOTSMEN WEAR KILTS because sheep can hear a zipper at 500 yards!

    Originally posted by Cady Goldfield
    Ah, what a cutie, Rogier. I'll bet a lot of ladies in Netherlands are mourning because you are out of circulation now!

  15. #30
    Jim London Guest

    Cool Transliteration

    Hi Shojin,

    You've touched on something else that I find academically interesting. I have heard that the transliteration Jiu-Jitsu was a portugese thing, there are a few North American versions that use this translation that seem to have originated in and around the 1950s. Though I have seen old Judo work that called itself "Jiudo" and claiming to be a style of Ju-Jutsu. Not sure what relationship that has to the eventual uses of the word.

    Do you know why the original BJJers chose the transliteration they did? To me there doesnt seem to be much rhyme or reason to various name choices by those that brought the art across the Pacific.

    Jim London.

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