Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu

[swblock]

One who is truly interested in the arts will evolve to a place where they come to realize that the source of truth is not found in these forums, nor is it a place where truth can be shared.

[Joseph Svinth]

Then why are you here?

Flatulence, perhaps?

[fifthchamber]

And did you ever manage to get to the Dojo in Tokyo? You mentioned a possible visit for July/August time right?
Did you meet Kubota Sensei?And what did you think?

[DDATFUS]

One who is truly interested in the arts will evolve to a place where they come to realize that the source of truth is not found in these forums, nor is it a place where truth can be shared.

Depends entirely on what sort of truth you mean. If you want to learn the truth about aiki, then a forum is a bad place to look. If you want to learn the truth about the history of aikido, how it relates to Daito Ryu, and what arts influenced the development of both, then a forum like this isn't a bad place to start.

And if you want to learn whether an instructor is the real deal or a fraud who has lied about his past, this forum is one of the best places to start digging for the truth.

[Steve Delaney]

One who is truly interested in the arts will evolve to a place where they come to realize that the source of truth is not found in these forums, nor is it a place where truth can be shared.

So you've just indirectly called me and several others on this forum a liar. Bravo.

If you want to be an ostrich with your head in the sand, please be my guest. Noone will stop you. I was told information first hand, just like others were in the ryuha. Your loyalty is commendable, but do please try to learn the truth of the matter, rather than skew it, when it doesn't suit to your liking.

There are a lot of people here who have "done time" in Japan and have trained in various koryu ryuha and gendai budo. This forum, when said members are present, is a very good source of background information.

[swblock]

I apologize to all who were offended by my last post. It was not my intention to insult anyone or call anyone a "liar."

As is said, "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

It is not my place to try to convince anyone about Mr. Lester or his continued relationship with Mr. Kubota. Although, given a very recent communication between the two (that I read personally), I think it is a mistake to characterize their relationship as anything different than what I've tried to convey here in the past.

But again, it's not my place to try to convince anyone. Nor would it be possible to do so.

Here's the rub: You (all of you) could be absolutely correct and I could be absolutely wrong about Mr. Lester. On the other hand, the converse is true as well. I could be absolutely right, and you (all of you) could be absolutely wrong. Still, neither of us is privileged to know the full truth because we haven't earned that right. That statement includes current students and those that have "spent time" training in Japan. It's not an indictment upon your understanding. Rather, it is an editorial regarding the level of insight a headmaster (Mr. Kubota) allows any of his students to have.

My point is this: Until one (a student) is chosen to know all the truth, and granted the keys to unlock the pearls of wisdom, one will never know what the truth really is. Or in other words, you don't know what you don't know, until you know.

Everything else, is just an assumption.

Every one has a right to believe what they believe. But, beliefs based on assumptions should not be taken as fact. In the end, that is all I was trying to say in my earlier post.

Again, if I have wounded anyone, I sincerely apologize. That was not my intention.

Is anyone familiar with the story of Yagyu Shingan Ryu and the "Inside" versus the "Outside" knowledge? Therein lies the key to what ( I ) call the Headmaster mindset. A Headmaster allows misinformation, or incomplete information (Outside) to be widely disseminated, yet keeps the truth (Inside) very closely held. It's a fascinating insight to their way. I remember when having a conversation with a notable author that published about TSR, he said to me that no matter how long you train or spend time in Japan, you will always be an "outsider." It would be a glorious day for Mr. Kubota to come out and publicly announce to world that he created TSGR and he entrusted Mr. Lester with its proliferation. That will NEVER happen.

So, the only thing we can hope for is what Mr. Kubota has already done; write and publish and thus identify the Goshinjyutsu of TSR as an original system within the overall style of TSR that was developed by the Founder, Iso Mataemon. Still, Mr. Kubota didn't write and publish anything new. These facts are published in many preceding publications. ( I ) believe Mr. Kubota made the effort to write about it again because he is the first Headmaster to delineate the system and "pass" it on, separate from TSR.

Mr. Lester didn't create anything. He was given the Goshinjyutsu and the components of TSR to make Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu a complete style, inclusive of all of the Koryu principles and methods.

Take care, one and all.

S.

[Steve Delaney]

But again, it's not my place to try to convince anyone. Nor would it be possible to do so.

My point is this: Until one (a student) is chosen to know all the truth, and granted the keys to unlock the pearls of wisdom, one will never know what the truth really is. Or in other words, you don't know what you don't know, until you know.

Everything else, is just an assumption.

It's not a secret. It's not even a pearl of wisdom. It's something that is known to those who go to the dojo regularly.

Every one has a right to believe what they believe. But, beliefs based on assumptions should not be taken as fact. In the end, that is all I was trying to say in my earlier post.

How about beliefs based upon what was actually said and shown, from the horse's mouth so to speak?

So, the only thing we can hope for is what Mr. Kubota has already done; write and publish and thus identify the Goshinjyutsu of TSR as an original system within the overall style of TSR that was developed by the Founder, Iso Mataemon. Still, Mr. Kubota didn't write and publish anything new. These facts are published in many preceding publications. ( I ) believe Mr. Kubota made the effort to write about it again because he is the first Headmaster to delineate the system and "pass" it on, separate from TSR.

Where are these publications? Kindly please cite your sources. Kubota sensei's publications are mainly in Japanese. In the Tokyo dojo, there is no such entity as TSGR. End of.

What is taught is the koryu - Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. Since TSR has many historical links to Kodokan judo and the fact that Kubota sensei is also a 7th dan in Kodokan judo, Kodokan judo and it's kata are also taught.

[Louvere]

I apologize to all who were offended by my last post. It was not my intention to insult anyone or call anyone a "liar."

As is said, "a man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

It is not my place to try to convince anyone about Mr. Lester or his continued relationship with Mr. Kubota. Although, given a very recent communication between the two (that I read personally), I think it is a mistake to characterize their relationship as anything different than what I've tried to convey here in the past.

But again, it's not my place to try to convince anyone. Nor would it be possible to do so.

Here's the rub: You (all of you) could be absolutely correct and I could be absolutely wrong about Mr. Lester. On the other hand, the converse is true as well. I could be absolutely right, and you (all of you) could be absolutely wrong. Still, neither of us is privileged to know the full truth because we haven't earned that right. That statement includes current students and those that have "spent time" training in Japan. It's not an indictment upon your understanding. Rather, it is an editorial regarding the level of insight a headmaster (Mr. Kubota) allows any of his students to have.

My point is this: Until one (a student) is chosen to know all the truth, and granted the keys to unlock the pearls of wisdom, one will never know what the truth really is. Or in other words, you don't know what you don't know, until you know.

Everything else, is just an assumption.

Every one has a right to believe what they believe. But, beliefs based on assumptions should not be taken as fact. In the end, that is all I was trying to say in my earlier post.

Again, if I have wounded anyone, I sincerely apologize. That was not my intention.

Is anyone familiar with the story of Yagyu Shingan Ryu and the "Inside" versus the "Outside" knowledge? Therein lies the key to what ( I ) call the Headmaster mindset. A Headmaster allows misinformation, or incomplete information (Outside) to be widely disseminated, yet keeps the truth (Inside) very closely held. It's a fascinating insight to their way. I remember when having a conversation with a notable author that published about TSR, he said to me that no matter how long you train or spend time in Japan, you will always be an "outsider." It would be a glorious day for Mr. Kubota to come out and publicly announce to world that he created TSGR and he entrusted Mr. Lester with its proliferation. That will NEVER happen.

So, the only thing we can hope for is what Mr. Kubota has already done; write and publish and thus identify the Goshinjyutsu of TSR as an original system within the overall style of TSR that was developed by the Founder, Iso Mataemon. Still, Mr. Kubota didn't write and publish anything new. These facts are published in many preceding publications. ( I ) believe Mr. Kubota made the effort to write about it again because he is the first Headmaster to delineate the system and "pass" it on, separate from TSR.

Mr. Lester didn't create anything. He was given the Goshinjyutsu and the components of TSR to make Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu a complete style, inclusive of all of the Koryu principles and methods.

Take care, one and all.

S.

Hello Steven,

Yes, I'm familiar with the Yagyu Shingan Ryu "inside V's "outside" knowledge. Is there something I can assist you with?

regards,

Simon Louis

[Teppeikai]

I have read with interest a few postings here and there on E-Budo with regards to Seishi Teppei (incorrectly spelled Teppi), his lineage and also his connection to Vernon Bell. At the risk of reigniting a thread that has been dead for nearly two years (if anyone will even read it) I thought I would add my two cents worth to set the record straight.
1) I have been studying jujutsu in Seishi Teppei Sensei's lineage since 1983, first in Cape Town, South Africa (where Teppei's student Johnston started his dojo in 1928) and now run a small dojo here in Vancouver, Canada. My website is www.ju-jitsu.sa.com for those who are interested. For many years I have been doing research into the history of the style of Jujutsu that I practice and can confidently state that I am the most qualified to address historical and technical questions with regards to this lineage.
2) I wish to state unequivocally that Seishi Teppei did NOT teach Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. Neither he nor his students made that claim either in the oral or written history - in fact ,the specific name of the ryu he originated from has not be transmitted. For this reason we do not use a "ryu name" to describe the system of Jujutsu. Furthermore, I have had the priviledge of doing some Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in the Kubota Toshihiro lineage, and can state that there is little to no resemblance between the techniques taught in the TSR and Seishi Teppei Sensei's system.
3) A later, 4th generation student, Charles Gaven, attempted to identify the ryu origen and thought it was TSR - he told me in person that he was the one who made this identification. This error is not being perpetuated in my organization. Once again, the origen of this claim was not Teppei or his students.
3) There are claims that Vernon Bell in the UK studied under Seishi Teppei. This is false. Teppei was never in South Africa at all, even if this was so, he was not there in the brief time period (1939) when Bell is claimed to have been there. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Bell ever studied with Teppei's student H. Johnston in SA. This may be so, but all the evidence points to the contrary. Bell's students have additionally made claims that H. Johnston taught Bell in the UK for several years. In fact, H. Johnston was never in the UK. They confused him with an ex-wrestler/ Judoka named Harry Johnson who taught in the Swaffield Road Institute in London. They are two different men.
4) Teppei Sensei's system as taught by me is a pure Japanese art in origen and transmission as derived from him, and has not be combined with other styles. We cannot make claims that we teach a Koryu, as we have not had connection to Japan for 80 years and do not have any direct written or oral transmission of either licences, mokuroku or origional ryu name. However, what we teach is not Gendai Jujutsu either (a modern derivative of mingled arts).

I hope this little addition will clear up any ideas perpetuated by various individuals which bring Seishi Teppei and his lineage into disrepute through attaching false claims.

[Steve Delaney]

I have read with interest a few postings here and there on E-Budo with regards to Seishi Teppei (incorrectly spelled Teppi), his lineage and also his connection to Vernon Bell. At the risk of reigniting a thread that has been dead for nearly two years (if anyone will even read it) I thought I would add my two cents worth to set the record straight.
1) I have been studying jujutsu in Seishi Teppei Sensei's lineage since 1983, first in Cape Town, South Africa (where Teppei's student Johnston started his dojo in 1928) and now run a small dojo here in Vancouver, Canada. My website is www.ju-jitsu.sa.com for those who are interested. For many years I have been doing research into the history of the style of Jujutsu that I practice and can confidently state that I am the most qualified to address historical and technical questions with regards to this lineage.
2) I wish to state unequivocally that Seishi Teppei did NOT teach Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. Neither he nor his students made that claim either in the oral or written history - in fact ,the specific name of the ryu he originated from has not be transmitted. For this reason we do not use a "ryu name" to describe the system of Jujutsu. Furthermore, I have had the priviledge of doing some Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in the Kubota Toshihiro lineage, and can state that there is little to no resemblance between the techniques taught in the TSR and Seishi Teppei Sensei's system.
3) A later, 4th generation student, Charles Gaven, attempted to identify the ryu origen and thought it was TSR - he told me in person that he was the one who made this identification. This error is not being perpetuated in my organization. Once again, the origen of this claim was not Teppei or his students.
3) There are claims that Vernon Bell in the UK studied under Seishi Teppei. This is false. Teppei was never in South Africa at all, even if this was so, he was not there in the brief time period (1939) when Bell is claimed to have been there. Furthermore, there is no evidence that Bell ever studied with Teppei's student H. Johnston in SA. This may be so, but all the evidence points to the contrary. Bell's students have additionally made claims that H. Johnston taught Bell in the UK for several years. In fact, H. Johnston was never in the UK. They confused him with an ex-wrestler/ Judoka named Harry Johnson who taught in the Swaffield Road Institute in London. They are two different men.
4) Teppei Sensei's system as taught by me is a pure Japanese art in origen and transmission as derived from him, and has not be combined with other styles. We cannot make claims that we teach a Koryu, as we have not had connection to Japan for 80 years and do not have any direct written or oral transmission of either licences, mokuroku or origional ryu name. However, what we teach is not Gendai Jujutsu either (a modern derivative of mingled arts).

I hope this little addition will clear up any ideas perpetuated by various individuals which bring Seishi Teppei and his lineage into disrepute through attaching false claims.

Could you give your name please sir, as per e-budo forum rules.

Thank you for the very informative post by the way.

[Ree]

Guy

Many thanks on sharing your reseach on both Teppei Sensei and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.These findings have no reflection on the technical effectiveness of these other teachers or styles,however it does have an affect on their claims of the origin of the techniques,style(be it Tenjin Shinyo Ryu or Tenshin Shinyo Ryu)and their founder ie Iso Mataemon Ryukansai Minamoto no Masatari.I hope this information will be taken in a positive rather than negative way.

[Teppeikai]

Lee,
Thanks for your little "concilliatory" and explanatory addendum to my post...in my haste to type it out (late at night too) I may have phrased things a little too directly. I agree completely with your comments and sentiment that the "facts" as stated in my post were not intended as a critique of anyone's system or of any one individual although it perhaps came across that way. I also do not believe anyone has been intentionally fielding incorrect information, but where errors do creep in it is in everyone's interests for them to be cleared up.

I came across the short video footage of you and your father performing some of the kata on the internet...enjoyed seeing that. Nice intensity level to it. Give my regards to your father.

Steve,
I am pleased you found the post of interest. My apology for not including my name, although i have browsed through e-budo for years I am a newbie at posting - I had assumed the name was automatically tagged to the post............???
so......here it, is...........
Guy Taylor

[George Kohler]

I had assumed the name was automatically tagged to the post............???

Guy Taylor

I added it to your signature field in your profile (user CP). You shouldn't have to worry any more.

[Teppeikai]

thanks George - much appreciated.

[swblock]

[QUOTE=Steve Delaney;449916] Where are these publications? Kindly please cite your sources. Kubota sensei's publications are mainly in Japanese. In the Tokyo dojo, there is no such entity as TSGR. End of. [QUOTE]


Once again, Mr. Delaney, I'll provide these sources to you and all the readers of this forum, below.

First, you are correct. These sources are written in Japanese. Secondly, you are also correct in that there is no reference to Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu (TSGR) by specific name. But, as I've tried to "make plain" to you and others before, TSGR is the name Mr. Lester has given to the body of knowledge he received from Mr. Kubota, which is referenced in these sources as Goshinjyutsu.

TSGR includes the original Goshinjyutsu of TSR (Shodan Taichia) and the updated skills per each headmaster of the ryu, plus, TSR Tehodoki, Nagesute, and advanced teachings (of the highest nature, i.e. that of the mind and not necessarily of the body - if you need more of an explanation, please consult Mr. Kubota, if you are so inclined), which Mr. Lester received to complete the full body of knowledge that is required to make TSGR a complete style.

I can't make it any more "plain" than that. You once argued why Mr. Kubota would do that. I don't have an answer for you. But I submit to you, and all who are so inclined to follow this thread that not having an answer to the question of 'why' doesn't reduce the truth.

Now, since I posted the entire message below some time ago, right here on this forum, I can only assume that you must not have taken the time to review the materials. Nevertheless, I am more than willing to share them with you again. BUT, again, as you mentioned, these sources are original and written in Japanese. I assume you can read Japanese. I, as a point of fact, can not. I must have them translated.

So, for validation of what I am referencing from a translated version, I encourage you, and whomever else is so inclined, to read the original Japanese publications that I provide references to below and prove my assertions to be incorrect.

If you can do so, I'd be very thankful and will have a renewed sense of urgency regarding my understanding of the facts. If you can not, then I'll leave it to you to address your own past comments on this forum.

Now, lastly, as I am not a 'regular' contributor on this forum, I have a special email address for you, and whomever else is so inclined, to notify me of your findings, or ask any additional questions that you may have. Any email you send to questions@goshinryu.org will come directly to me, and will copy Mr. Lester himself. In fact, I encourage any and everyone that is 'curious' to dialog with me and/or Mr. Lester directly.

Why??

Well, I imagine that after reviewing the referenced materials below, the next argument will be, "that doesn't prove Mr. Lester is all that you claim him to be." So, to that, I suggest you take whatever avenues are available to you to learn more about him. In fact, perhaps you should even register for the class that he offers to the public at large. http://goshinryu.net

I'd be happy to meet and train with you, and anyone else that is curious and willing to learn.

So, without further delay, here is the post that I made earlier with the references to original Japanese publications that speak to the body of knowledge of the Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo ryu and its origin. It is Koryu.

Steven Block
Menkyo Tassa,
Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu

~ ~ ~

In conclusion to my contribution to this discussion, I'd like to refer all who are interested to three books / publications which speak to the origin of and/or impetus to create Tenjin Shinyo Ryu's Goshinjyutsu and it's development by the founder, thus making it Koryu.

1. Nippon Jyujyutsu, Chapter 5, page 122
Japan Book of Formal Military Ways

Excerpt:

>>> Inlet Door - Goshinjyutsu of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu

The inlet door period began when the disturbances of war caused crisis and emergencies. All organized assemble was suppressed by Armed Forces. Opponents used their bare hands to attack and assault. They dealt with skill, vigorously.

The aim, goal of the new body research, added this System to Tenjin Shinyo Ryu which flowed originally from our Ancestor whose development of crude Foot and Leg movements corrected by truth was the originating source.

The fame, reputation of our Ancestor's skill was throughout the whole country. This influenced five thousand people to receive passage of this approach. The System was transmitted to "Respect and Honor Human Life," even when wounding an opponent in order to defeat them. This is the aim, goal of this Branch, which was extended over a large area and became widely accepted. <<<

2. Jyujyutsu Taii Roku, written by Bo Terasaki (highest Disciple of the Ganso)

3. Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jyujyutsu Gokui Kyoju Zukai (Secret teachings and pictorial analysis) written by Iso Mataemon Masanobu (4th Generation Headmaster) and Chiharu Yoshida (3rd Generation Headmaster's highest disciple, 2nd edition printing) - - a.k.a., "The Flag Book"

In short, Tenjin Shinyo Goshin Ryu is authenticated today by the authenticity of its original beginning, which is well documented, and by the direct result of Mr. Toshihiro Kubota's teaching of Mr. Lester, and his receipt of the subsequent transmission of the knowledge for completion.

Mr. Lester teaches in the United States.