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Thread: Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu

  1. #31
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    Barry,

    Skoss writes in the Koryu Bujutsu book that there is now two branches of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu. One is headed by Kubota and an other is headed by Shibata Koichi. I belive it's highly unlikly that someone broke out and started an own organization and started awarding dan-ranks. In this case I belive at least some would have heard of it...

    That Kubota should hold open seminars seams very unlikly. Tenjin Shinyo-ryu is more or less a closed system and not that open to the public (like judo for example)...The only time Kubota have had a more or less open seminar in Tenjin Shinyo-ryu was in Sweden (1998 I think). At least to my knowledge...

    Regards,
    Tommy

    PS! Happy new year to you also Lee...Really looking forward to meet you and you family again...

  2. #32
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    Dear Barry

    There is another branch of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in Japan Shibata Sensei,however I do not know his grade.
    This branch as far as I know does not have the Dan grade system.

    Kubota Sensei does give seminars at the Kodokan but in Kappo to the high ranking Judoka.

    With regards to high Dan grades in America or any where else for that matter,if a person obtained a high rank in any of the Koryu (ie Mokuroku etc.) then why change it to a Dan grade?

    The grades of Koryu are now well documented of which do not include Dan grades.

    Saying this all things are possible.

    kind regards

    Lee Masters

  3. #33
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    Dear Barry

    There is another branch of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu in Japan Shibata Sensei,however I do not know his grade.
    This branch as far as I know does not have the Dan grade system.

    Kubota Sensei does give seminars at the Kodokan but in Kappo to the high ranking Judoka.

    With regards to high Dan grades in America or any where else for that matter,if a person obtained a high rank in any of the Koryu (ie Mokuroku etc.) then why change it to a Dan grade?

    The grades of Koryu are now well documented of which do not include Dan grades.

    Saying this all things are possible.

    kind regards

    Lee Masters

  4. #34
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    Barry,
    You might try asking your question on the discussion board at Budoseek.net. Robert Carver, Vice President of USJJF, is the administrator.

  5. #35
    MarkF Guest

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    Hi, Barry,
    You could ask Robert Carver, and he will give the lowdown as he knows it on those ranks held by Bruce Bethers.

    I didn't know Bethers claimed rank in kito-ryu, but that is an even smaller school than is tenjin shin'yo. They both, at last I heard, are active in Japan though very close knit. If there are two, even then I would ask questions.

    Some koryu do use the dan system of ranking students just as some gendai use the menjo. I believe Meik Skoss holds dan grade in at least one koryu. Generally, changes such as these are done due to the spread of a fairly open ryu.

    Takamura-ha Shindo Yoshin ryu could be said to be gendai but dan grades are not used (Toby Threadgill holds Menkyo Kaiden) . Also, there is Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu, most believe it to be koryu, though there isn't much in the way of proof that it passes the "date test" and uses the dan-i system out of necessity, but the ranks are pretty much equal to the older menkyo licensing. Don Angier's aiki bukei started with a commercial school (well, it didn't start, rather he opened one which did not last), then began to teach in the old manner.

    It isn't that "all" koryu use anything, nor are all modern systems (it has been a while so may we refer to Meiji era jujutsu and Kodokan Judo the pre-modern styles?).

    But some just don't (issue anything but menjo) and anyone considering a school (and is accepted) which claims to teach kito or tenjin shin'yo should ask as many questions one can think of. It isn't any different than asking the same of a gendai system or teacher. They are small, have only a very few students, and remain so, as has kito and Tenshin shin'yo.

    Mark

  6. #36
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    Friends,


    I greatly appreciate all the input..My personal thoughts are that it would be quite rare for someone in the USA to have high level ranks in both of these arts...Not, that it isn't impossible for someone to train in Japan or from a representative in the art woho lives in the USA...Folks I was told there are two people in the Pennsylvania/New Jersey area that teach Kitoryu...Sensei Serge DeCaserin ( Nisei Kitoryu Dojo) and Sensei Kenneth Chism at another location( 6 th dan Kitoryu)....
    Then there is George Parulski from Webster New York which is another story all together!!!
    I might take the suggestion and try Budoseek.com and ask the question...Not in anyway to put someone down but just to find answers...If you list a rank in these arts, then you shouldn't have any problem giving answers to questions....Questions posed by someone who has an interest and hopes to find answers and contacts and further information...I'd rather see someone be up front and say:
    Barry, I have high rank in Judo and decided to use the Kito or Tenjin name to my selfdefense course and I have no formal training specifically in either of the curriculums nor am I connected to Japan in these arts... I really wouldn't like the names being used if you didn't train in the system,etc.,etc.,...I'm seiously concerned for the new student of any art being " hoodwinked" and "double talked" and get in over their heads in systems that might not be authentic...
    You all know what I mean....

    Actually, I really would like to think their are people here in the USA with legitimate credentials in these arts...

    Thank you all for valuable information concerning these arts..Do you think Kubota sensei would share info. as to if he has any students in the USA ? That man in Camden, New Jersey who's at a college...I think shows a picture of himself with Kubota sensei...

    Take Care

    Barry E. Southam

  7. #37
    MarkF Guest

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    Hi, Barry,
    Darn, the memory is the first thing to go when you get as old as you are.

    The URL for BudoSeek! is http://www.budoseek.net . DOT NET or .NET .

    If you want to get some information before you publish your question, contact Robert Carver, I think, webmaster@budoseek.net . If that isn't it, after clicking on the link to the fora, you will see he moderates a lot of them, so click on "webmaster" on any of the fora there and his email is available.

    He's a good guy, at least he is willing to discuss matters like that, even with me! You don't remember those posts in 1999 in which we hit pretty hard? Even though he's a kid of about 41, he is more mature than that, usually.

    At least you can get started and find out. I'd hesitate to refer to any teacher in this country, picures with Kubota or anyone else don't mean squat much of the time, but you know that, you were one of those who warned me when I first started lurking on MA web sites.

    *An interesting sidenote in regard to Mr. P in upstate NY. He is a member of E-budo. Interestingly enough, he joined on the same day I emailed him to ask if he would respond to the questions being asked, or submit to an online interview accurate to the last error which I promised would be published in full, no editing at all, or any other way he wished. He did answer some of my own questions, but that was it. Apparently he DID take a look at the then current thread[s] and decided we are too nasty. Date was August 14, 2000. He has never posted here.

    I've learned to go in with an open mind, and then let 'em have it.


    Mark

  8. #38
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    Friends

    I can only speak from my own experience,having been accepted by a true Koryu (in Japan),training in Tenjin Shinyo Ryu and also taking part in Enbu in Japan.

    I have also seen the Densho of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.

    It is true, there is a world of difference between Koryu and Shin Budo.This difference is reflected through both the techniques and the teachers of the style.Therefore you will know when you come across a true Koryu.

    kind regards

    Lee Masters

  9. #39
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    Mark,

    Mr. Robert Carver was very gracious in sending me an e mail before I even had one ready to send to him..Concerning Col. Bethers credentials in Kitoryu Jujutsu and Tenjin shinyoryu Jujutsu..

    Col. Bethers hasn't maintained connections to Japan

    Sarted training in Kito and Tenjin shinyoryu under a Mr. John J. Chaffin..Who was a GI stationed in Post war Japan. Chaffin was a student of Koichi Kobayoshi..

    After returning to the USA Mr. Chaffin started teaching and one of his first students had been Col. Bethers.

    Kobayoshi eventually moved to Oklahoma City and Col. Bethers then studied under both men..

    Mr. Robert Carver is a sincere gentleman and vice president of the United States JuJutsu Federation..

    Mark, thanks for the suggestion on contacting Mr. Carver, even though he got to me first..Ha!

    Take Care

    Barry E. Southam

  10. #40
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    Hi!

    It would be interesting to know where line of Tenjin Shinyo-ryu that Koichi Kobayoshi practiced in...Does anyone know?

    I also find it strange that he used Dan-ranks instead of the normal menkyo-system...

    Regards,
    Tommy

  11. #41
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    Hi Russ

    I e-mailed Steve just before Christmas.

    Lee

  12. #42
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    Hi Russ

    I e-mailed Steve just before Christmas.

    Lee

  13. #43
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    Dear Russ

    Thankyou for the message and please send my regards to Steve.
    Unfortunately we will be visiting Japan next year.

    Going back to the thread,do these other Tenjin Shinyo Ryu groups teach Kata or just techniques?

    Kind regards
    Lee Masters

  14. #44
    Charles Choi Guest

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    Hi there Chad,

    I've come accross the following link to Daniel Lee's Koryu Bujutsu webpage, with reference to the school you are looking for:
    http://www.geocities.com/koryu-bujutsu/tenjin.html

  15. #45
    MarkF Guest

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    The most current I know of is:

    Located in the North Sydney Police Citizens Youth Club, a branch of Kubota Sensei's Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Jujutsu has been active for quite a number of years under the direction of George Marton-sensei (Sydney, NSW). Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is an extensive system of over 130 kata of classical jujutsu unarmed combat teaching from seated positions, standing positions, weapons defence, and also includes special healing methods and resuscitation (kappou).

    For futher details, please contact:
    George Marton sensei (02) 9299-3555 (bh) or email to gsmarton@intalink.com.au



    You may want to do a forum or web site search here for it. He has been discussed before (the info. above may be old).


    Mark

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