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Thread: Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu

  1. #61
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    Hi all
    Forget the above post here it is, it is a reponse to Jo Biggs inquiry into the Vernon Bell lineage of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu:-

    Dear Mr.Jo Biggs,

    Thank you for your enquiry into Tenjin Shinyo Ryu Ju-Jutsu.
    I feel it is my duty and about time that the record is put straight regarding Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
    Like all Koryu of Japan, Tenjin Shinyo Ryu is regarded as a national heritage. All headmasters of a Koryu are very proud and protective of their art and quite rightly so.

    I am going to outline some facts and background that may answer your questions regarding Mr. Vernon Bell and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
    While Vernon was alive there were three main lineages of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
    One was Tobari Tokusaburo and his wife Tobari Kazu from the Inoue Keitaro lineage. The second was Shibata Koichi from Miyamoto Hanzo lineage and the third was my Sensei Kubota Toshihiro Shihanke whose teacher was Sakamoto Fusataro.

    First, from my research the Tobari line did not accept Gaijin students and this line is all but extinct today.
    Secondly, Shibata Koichi has to my knowledge never given courses in this country and Vernon had told me that he had never been to Japan. Thirdly, Vernon was definitely not a student or member of my lineage i.e. Kubota Toshihiro Shihanke. Also Vernon did not have or could not produce any Menjo Kirigami or Mokuroku, Menkyo or Menkyo Kaiden scroll. These are the proof of your transmission and lineage.

    I started my martial art career in 1966 with Vernon, first learning some judo then moving on to karate and ju-jutsu. The style of ju-jutsu Vernon told me I was learning was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu or Tenshin Shinyo Ryu as he sometimes termed it and whose founder was Iso Mataemon. At this time I trained with him everyday, sometimes 2-3 times a day, both in karate and ju-jutsu. After several years we parted. We rekindled our relationship in the mid 90’s when I undertook private lessons from him, sometimes twice a week, in what he again told me was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. During this period he told me that I was to become his successor and head of the Tenjin Shinyo Ryu organisation for this country. I have a signed letter from him to this effect.
    By this time I had dedicated most of my life to teaching and training other students including my son in the martial arts, in what I thought was Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.

    Following this several things happened that started putting doubt in my mind that what Vernon professed to be Tenjin Shinyo Ryu was in fact a Goshin westernised style of ju-jutsu. I questioned Vernon as to the validity of the system of the style of ju-jutsu we were doing and he was still adamant that it was the true Tenjin Shinyo Ryu of Iso Mataemon.
    He told me he had learnt it from a Japanese gentleman by the name of Seishi Teppi while in the airforce and stationed in South Africa, but in my own heart I knew all was not correct.
    As yet I have not been able to trace any information on Seishi Teppi, but even if this was true and I do not doubt that it was, whatever the Japanese gentleman taught Vernon, it was not Tenjin Shinyo Ryu as neither the techniques or syllabus resembled anything like what I now know as Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.
    I have to say we parted company and I held a feeling of animosity towards him. However, that was now something like 11 years ago and much has happened to me in my martial arts career. I have also had time to reflect on the whole situation and I now personally believe that Vernon sincerely felt he had been taught and was teaching Tenjin Shinyo Ryu because probably this is what he was incorrectly told and this probably goes for many others out there. But I ask, if you cannot prove your lineage and do not have the correct credentials, then please,please do not call it Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. As we put in our first post, there is only one Tenjin Shinyo Ryu.

    Regarding the late Mr. Bell, I do not now feel any animosity towards him and he should be remembered as the ‘Father of British Karate’ because this is fact and he relentlessly worked to establish the karate movement for this country and seeing today how many people practice karate, he was surely successful and therefore must go down in history as a great man.

    I would like to finish this long discourse by saying my only teacher now is Kubota Toshihiro Shihanke and the only martial art that I practice and teach is Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I am the only westerner to date to have been taught the Gokui techniques, these are the higher secretive techniques of our style. In fact in July last year while I was training in Japan Sensei taught me the Kuden and told me that I was his first student that he had ever taught Kuden to. The Kuden is the inner teaching of our Ryu and contains all the principles behind the 124 fighting katas of our style and this was the last thing his teacher the late Sakamoto Sensei taught him. Also in July last year my son Lee was awarded his Mokuroku. He is the first person to be awarded this transmission under the authority of the Tenyokai U.K. and this was recognised and ratified in Japan by Kubota Sensei, President of the Tenyokai Japan.
    I tell you this not to blow my own trumpet but to give you the facts as they are.

    If I am a quarter as successful as Mr. Vernon Bell in propagating Tenjin Shinyo Ryu as he was in karate then I will be truly satisfied.

    Paul Masters
    President Tenyokai U.K.
    Menkyo Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Kind Regards
    Lee Masters
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Tenyokai International

  2. #62
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    Hi all

    Here is a brief history of Tenjin Shinyo Ryu:-

    www.Fightmag.co.uk

    Thanks
    Kind Regards
    Lee Masters
    Tenjin Shinyo Ryu
    Tenyokai International

  3. #63
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    Hi,

    I am one of the Dan's of the club everyone knows on here as Deeside Ju Jitsu club. I have also trained with the guys at the Chester Ju Jitsu Club. These two clubs are linked by a lineage to Jim Pape.

    The Yudansha Kai is as far as I know a modern club set up by the Senior Black belts at the Chester club. It is not a style but membership is dependant on being a black belt of a recognised standard. They have a web site which gives a description of the lineage. I have no reason to disagree with what they state on this and we share the lineage from Jimmy going backwards. There website is http://www.yudanshakai.co.uk/.

    When training with the Chester club and her sister club in Oxford I have found many of the techniques to be very similar as one would expect from those shareing the same lineage. I was shown great respect and was even invited to wear my black belt and teach at the club in Oxford.

    I am amazed by the lack of respect of several members of the forum who have posted to this and the martial arts planet link who have implied the Chester clubs are worthless. Anyone who has practiced martial arts for sometime should realise that you need to train on a mat before making judgement.

    As far as are we Tenjin Shinyo or not. The name varies due to translation from Japanese to English. The sounds used by the Japanese do not match those in English and are therfore an approximation. This means neither Tenjin or Tenshin are incorrect. This is similar to Koshi or Goshi for hip in hip throw. Secondly fighting styles were rarely written down in early Japan. So official lineages were probably not used either. It was important what you knew and that, like teaching was determined by word of mouth.

    The basis of the "official lineage" of this thread seems based on Iso Mataemon. I have found mention in Judo history on the web that state Jigaro Kano learnt Tensjin Shinyo Ju Jitsu from two contemporaries one of which was Iso the other being Fakuda.

    Bearing in mind that advertising and the numbers of people able to travel to Japan has increased hugely since the second world war it has become increasingly important to legitimise a style and market it. If you believe the history on the yudansha kai website then Tani in 1899 would have no reason to promote one style more than the other. He proved if it was any good in sideshows by beating boxers. It is for that reason people would ask to be taught by him. Why should he choose to tell his pupils they were learning Tenshin Shinyo rather than anything else unless it was true.

    As an academic at heart I would like to see the evidence that Lee and his father have collected to feel that they are the true representatives of Tenshin or Tenjin Ju Jitsu. It may be that they are correct and we are wrong but I would advise people to do their own research if this is important to them. It is not as clear cut as looking at scrolls and there is much vested interest these days.

    To finish I can say that myself and Ricky Blundell would welcome anyone who wishes to see what we do. I am in the process of building an official club site at www.tenshinshinyo.org. My address is Nick@tenshinshinyo.org and Ricky's is shihan@tenshinshinyo.org.

    Hope this clarifies some of the discussion.

    Nick
    Nick Openshaw

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by NickOpenshaw
    Hi,

    As far as are we Tenjin Shinyo or not. The name varies due to translation from Japanese to English. The sounds used by the Japanese do not match those in English and are therfore an approximation. This means neither Tenjin or Tenshin are incorrect. This is similar to Koshi or Goshi for hip in hip throw. Secondly fighting styles were rarely written down in early Japan.
    The name does not vary due to translation from Japanese to English. There are copious amounts of documentation in Japanese with furigana (kana syllabry used to denote pronounciation) it was always pronounced as Tenjin Shinyo-ryu.

    As for koshi and goshi, yes it is the same word, but one is used alone and the other is used in suffix form, in usage with a related word. (e.g. harai goshi, utsuri goshi, hane goshi, etc.)

    So official lineages were probably not used either. It was important what you knew and that, like teaching was determined by word of mouth.
    No, there is documentation of this too. Anyone who had proper authorisation to teach (That would be of Mokuroku, Menkyo or Menkyo Kaiden rank)would have been listed in the ryuha's eimeiroku (Student register).

    The basis of the "official lineage" of this thread seems based on Iso Mataemon. I have found mention in Judo history on the web that state Jigaro Kano learnt Tensjin Shinyo Ju Jitsu from two contemporaries one of which was Iso the other being Fakuda.
    That's Fukuda. Fukuda sensei died early, so Kano shihan went to learn from the 3rd hereditary headmaster, Iso sensei to complete his training.


    As an academic at heart I would like to see the evidence that Lee and his father have collected to feel that they are the true representatives of Tenshin or Tenjin Ju Jitsu. It may be that they are correct and we are wrong but I would advise people to do their own research if this is important to them. It is not as clear cut as looking at scrolls and there is much vested interest these days.
    Actually, if the scrolls are from a legitimate source and the lineage is undisputable (note in another post on this forum, related to another Tenjin Shinyo-ryu matter, Kubota sensei's inauguration as Shihanke & Menkyo kaiden of the ryuha in the late 1970's was witnessed by a large number of the high ranking individuals in the koryu community. Photographs of the documentation were taken, stamps and all.), it really is just that simple.

    Respect.

  5. #65
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    And it would be "Shihan", not "Shehan" too..Your website is an interesting one. I would personally change the sign that reads "Ju-jitsu a$$." as it may be taken in the wrong light..Your call.
    And that's Ju-jutsu as well, while we're on that subject. Japanese is Japanese and the sounds are rather easy to tell apart, now that we have a more uniform and standardised method for translation it ceases to be an issue. And does the kanji on the site mean Tenjin? 天神? Right? Or something else? I'm afraid I can't read it easily.
    Regards.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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    Steve,

    Thanks for your educational reply. It is nice to be treated with the respect that normally comes from people who take martial arts seriously. It seems a pity that fifth chamber feels it necessary to get a dig in.

    I consider that ratification of a single lineage in the 1970's seemed to miss my point. Because of one many lineages are ratified by a group of admitedly learned gentleman nearly a hundred years after does not invalidate the others automatically. As stated after the war and certainly in the 1970's due to Bruce Lee films the martial arts became very comercialised. If you were to be synical, as I have a tendency to be, ratification of a single line is very advantagous to a single group for marketing their education and chargeing for the priveledge.

    I would appreciate any constructive support in tracing the lineage we have back. I am sure there is much of truth with what is said in the history given by the Chester club and you seem to know about Derek Fairhurst who is largely responsible for the Oxford and Chester side of the lineage. His clubs seem to demonstrate many of the techniques we also use. If you believe that he has some legitamate connection with Tenjin Shinyo Ryu then maybe someone can enquire what he thinks the difference between the styles are as he studied under Jimmy Pape along with my instructor until a disagreement between the two split the clubs.

    My knowledge of Kanji is non existent. I have simply tried to copy club badges which I am sure have been re-drawn by people with as little knowledge as me. I was trying to validate what was written when I found the original article. The badge currently on my website was redrawn by me about 5 or more years ago. When checking against the club badge on my Gi I found the symbols not to match. I cannot recall what I originally copied so intend to validate what should be on the badge.

    Any support in developing a site that is as accurate as possible would be much apprectiated.

    Finally may I remind people of what was said the other site was an unofficial web site built as a college project. The videos that people seem to be up in arms about are not of curiculum moves but just random clips of a training session. I feel people should attend a class and explain politely their reasoning behind why we are legitimate rather than crying fowl with little knowledge.

    Having attended many classes nothing to do with my club I have found the style to be effective. I have received comments from students on other mats that my style is much more technical than that taught on their own mats. I would appreciate it if any other derogatory comments were witheld until people have proper knowledge of what we do. That said suggestions or support on getting the full and correct story to our club would be much appreciated.

    Thanks again for your positive input and I hope others will follow suit.

    Nick
    Nick Openshaw

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    I don't think the other gentleman was trying to be rude. He was pointing out that communication is easier if a little work goes into a post. If you use his information, after confirming it to be true, people will definately respect your efforts.

    Also, please do not confuse having an authentic link to a koryu lineage with the ability to rumble on the mat with other groups, or as a sign post of effective technique. Different areas, and one does not guarantee the other. So one should not be used to excuse a deficiency in the other.

    Best,
    Ron

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    I don't believe that I ever made any "digs" at you. I simply pointed out that there were some things that could be improved on your website and listed them here. I believe that people look at things like this to reflect you and your art and if they are left as they were I think you might lose some of your prestige. That's all.
    If that offended you I apologise.
    Regards.
    Ben Sharples.
    智は知恵、仁は思いやり、勇は勇気と説いています。

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    Quote Originally Posted by NickOpenshaw
    Steve,

    Thanks for your educational reply. It is nice to be treated with the respect that normally comes from people who take martial arts seriously. It seems a pity that fifth chamber feels it necessary to get a dig in.
    He didn't. He was being neighbourly and corrected mistakes that were apparent. Ben also lives in Japan and is in good position to know what he is talking about.

    Kind regards ,

    Stephen Delaney

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    Ben,

    May I apologise. Your comment with $$ in them implied you were adding something that was not there. It appeared you were trying to imply the club was an !!!. When you put it in full context of the club badge not the "sign" then it becomes clear you were not being insulting. "Tenshin Shinyo Ju Jitsu !!!." is short for Association. This has been on the club badge for years as far as I know and never caused a problem till now.

    Having talked to my Shihan, by the way I got the email address right but the web site details wrong, he tells me that a badge we have on our belts is correct. While it does not look identical to 天神 it is very similar. The second character is split in two halves. The box section is rounded at the corners not square. The left hand side is two v's mirored vertically with a vertical joining them and an accent above. I will try and draw the badge to match. Your opinion of the updated image would be appreciated. Does this just stand for Tenjin? There are seven characters on the belt. The additional characters are close to 柔術 which I understand to be Ju Jitsu or Ju Jutsu which ever you prefer.

    I will try and redraw the club badge characters again to match the one on my Gi. They are slightly different again. This is marked enough to make me wonder if they are truly different Japanese characters. Any interpretation would be helpful. Any volunteers?

    As far as official interpretation of Japanese to English I am sure it is quite likely that standardisation took place in the 1900's, during or after the time our lineage is supposed to transfer to Liverpool. It is quite believable that this is true as Liverpool was one of the worlds biggest ports at the time and had many nationalities passing through. Many also stayed. A scouser is likely to make a different interpretation of the Japanese on the mat to an Oxbridge educated (as they often were in the early 1900's) scholar discussing this with a Japanese Scholar.

    If anyone would like to come and see what we do they and pass constructive comment would be more than welcome. I would suspect our curriculum moves are the most likely to coincide with other Tenjin Shinyo clubs. It is quite possible that along the way other moves have been added to the club knowledge either from experimentation or from other sources. Indeed it is likely that this happened in the original Ryu. In the same way some original moves may have been lost in one lineage but survived in another. Maybe a little less purest view should be taken as you may discover with research that gaps can be filled by studying other lineages if they turn out to be traceable back to source.

    Just my thoughts

    Nick
    Nick Openshaw

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    Off topic, but is Ricky Blundell related to James Blundell (or Kenny Blundell of Lowlands Jujitsu ?)

    The geography matches, as well as the name. No agenda here, I'm just curious, and it would help tie up a few loose ends in the history of post war British JJ.
    Cheers,

    Mike
    No-Kan-Do

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    Mike to my knowledge there is no connection. I will check with Ricky next week.
    Nick Openshaw

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    Default Vernon Bell-tenshin

    I have read with interest the comments of Paul Masters in relation to Vernon Bell and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu. The concept of Mr Masters argument is that no true linage exists unless directly from Japan. If you accept that proposition, then you subscribe to the view that Yukio Tani and Uyenishi, students of Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, who arrived in England at the beginning of the 20th centaury, did not teach Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, when of course they did, or that their pupils, who became teachers, and their pupils and so on, did not create a linage in Tenshin Shinyo Ryu outside of Japan, when of course they did. Equally, such a concept would deny that there is an interface between Judo and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, when it is well documented that Kano originally studied Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu. Such is the lack of a full written history of Tenshin; it is impossible to fully connect every linage. In order to judge the credentials of Bell Shihan, you have to know the person. Bell Shihan was not just a student all his life in martial arts; he was a student all his life. His full title is was The Revd Dr Vernon C F Bell, BSc, MSc, and Ph D. He practiced in alternative medicine, being a renowned therapist, and was a skilled hypnotist, entertaining amongst others, the Law Society at Leeds Castle. He continued learning until the day he died. Bell Shihan had a photographic memory and could recall any number of defences to a single attack. In 1968, he co formed The European Jujitsu Union, (EJJU) and also The International Jujitsu Federation, (IJJF) and were established at the Nippon Sebukan in Kyoto Japan. In 1984 class B membership was granted to both organisations by the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organisation, and the International Council of Sports Science and Physical Education. It would be true to say that his position is very well cemented in Japan

    He was a master in martial arts, learning Yosikan Karate under Henri Plee in Paris, judo under Kenshrio Abbe, and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu, under Seishi Teppi, in South Africa. Seishi Teppi originally formed the Kodekwan Jujitsu School in 1928 in South Africa, teaching Tenshin Shinyo Ryu jujitsu. As I have said Bell Shihan had a photographic memory

    Bell Shihan, taught a demanding syllabus, and the county of Essex is inundated with, with former pupils who trained with him, for just a few years, many simply on an on and off basis. Unfortunately they nearly all fell by the wayside, and only a few of us, barely a handful completed that syllabus to shodan. Some even found it easier to travel abroad for their qualifications and should be commended for their effort. Never the less all, or perhaps nearly all regarded him with true admiration, affection and gratitude. It is pleasing that Mr Masters should feel that he has now rid himself of the animosity to Bell Shihan, unfortunately in the true tradition of a Grand Master, (and although a man of great compassion) to the day of his death Bell Shihan never reciprocated the feeling towards Paul Masters
    peter hogg

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    Quote Originally Posted by jujitsuwilliam
    [B]I have read with interest the comments of Paul Masters in relation to Vernon Bell and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu. The concept of Mr Masters argument is that no true linage exists unless directly from Japan.

    If you accept that proposition, then you subscribe to the view that Yukio Tani and Uyenishi, students of Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, who arrived in England at the beginning of the 20th centaury, did not teach Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, when of course they did, or that their pupils, who became teachers, and their pupils and so on, did not create a linage in Tenshin Shinyo Ryu outside of Japan, when of course they did.
    Well sir, you would need some solid historical documentation of this to substantiate this claim. It's possible to surmise that both instructors, Uenishi & Tani taught some Tenjin Shinyo-ryu waza as an example of the differences between Kodokan judo & koryu jujutsu, but without any real proof, it's just conjecture. Likewise with your claim above.

    Equally, such a concept would deny that there is an interface between Judo and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, when it is well documented that Kano originally studied Tenshin Shinyo Ryu Jujitsu. Such is the lack of a full written history of Tenshin; it is impossible to fully connect every linage.
    In English yes, but in Japanese, the history is quite well recorded in several volumes. Selected kuden (oral teachings) and historical incidents are still recorded and preserved.

    In 1968, he co formed The European Jujitsu Union, (EJJU) and also The International Jujitsu Federation, (IJJF) and were established at the Nippon Sebukan in Kyoto Japan. In 1984 class B membership was granted to both organisations by the United Nations Educational Scientific and Cultural Organisation, and the International Council of Sports Science and Physical Education. It would be true to say that his position is very well cemented in Japan
    If this is the case, why is it that no-one in Japan who has done koryu or gendai budo have ever heard of him then?

    Not trying to be obtuse, but just wanting some clarifications on some things.

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    Default vernon bell

    Thank you leprechaun, do I detect a touch of the Blarney? As you are aware Bell Shihan studied more than one system, and his work in Karate was published before his death, in the form of a book "Shotokan Dawn". Unfortunately he died before we could really get into the work on his life in Jujitsu. To say he is not known in Japan is not true, the organisations that he founded are as previously stated fully recorded, though I would accept your instant would be reposte, that the organisations were to include all styles of Jujitsu. Clearly he had no connection with your mentor Toshirio Kubota, and perhaps not with others in Japan who also claim to teach Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, separate from Kubota, despite the denials of Kubota. He does have a direct connection with Seishi Teppi, but since he founded his school in 1928, I have no way of knowing in what form Seshi Teppi taught and there in lays the rub, which affects us all, despite the chronicles to which you refer.
    I am in the process of investigating a full history for Bell shihan, which is unfortunately hampered by missing important documents, Bell shihan always said stolen fom him, though i could not possibly know that. I hope to publish further information one day of his life in jujutsu noteably with Seishi Teppi, in time of course. So watch this space, one day, perhaps
    peter hogg

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