Likes Likes:  0
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: Subway Violence...Or real close quarters violence

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    NYC, NY, USA
    Posts
    341
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Greetings,

    As one who takes the Subways every day, how do you react to agressive behavior on a hot, enroute, overcrowed subway car, or similiar tight environment? In the scenario I am picturing I am seated on a bench type seat on a packed subay car and have an encounter with either the person sitting on either side of me, and/or the person standing directly in front of my seated position. They are reacting to an imaginary insult (like stepping on their shoes, or not hearing a request to move over a bit, etc.)and move almost immediately from verbal abuse to physical assault. The tight, overcrowded conditions of the Subway car, in addition to living in the crazed metropolis may have more to do with this than any actual insult.

    What would you do and how would you do it. If you have ever been on a crowded train, bus or packed elevator you may be able to envision the situation!

    Regards,
    TommyK
    Tom Militello
    "You can't hide on the mats." Terry Dobson sensei.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    573
    Likes (received)
    17

    Default

    There's a story in "Aikido and the New Warrior", compiled by Richard Strozzi Heckler, that addresses this very thing. Basically it goes like this:

    A young guy is on a train in Japan, there is an obnoxious type who is hassling people. The young guy believes that this is the time for him to test his Aikido skills and prepares to counter the guy. This little old gentleman (aren't they all little old gentlemen?) shouts some innocuous comment and gets the guys attention. He then starts talking to him and within a short period they are conversing and the obnoxious guy is crying and pouring out his heart.

    The young guy realises that this is the ultimate expression of aiki and everyone lives happily ever after.

    Ok, I may have paraphrased a bit! But the moral still stands, there is almost always a non-violent answer to any solution, the simplest in your scenario would be to get up and move to another carriage. You could appologise and offer the guy a mint, start up a conversation, act crazy or just exude an aura of passive, non threatening, calmness. This last has worked for me on numerous occasions when working in 5 star resort security.

    Just some ideas.

    Regards
    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    NYC, NY, USA
    Posts
    341
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Dobson Sensei

    Hi Neil.

    That story stems from Terry Dobson Sensei, and took place in a train that was not NYC Subway crowded. But you will remember I said that the verbal portion was quick and furious and the physical assault IMMEDIATELY followed, what would YOU do?

    Thanks, and regards,
    TommyK
    Tom Militello
    "You can't hide on the mats." Terry Dobson sensei.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    573
    Likes (received)
    17

    Default

    There are so many variables that it would be hard to say. Exactly what attack is coming, is he beside me, across from me, behind me? Am I in the corner against a windo, in the middle of a forward facing seat, is the seat facing inwards, is he alone, are there elderly or young in the vicinity that may be affected by my actions, etc, etc, etc.

    Maybe we should write this up as a TDG and get some responses from the crowd. Do you want to write it up, or you can e-mail me the scenario and I'll fill in some blanks before posting it, whatever.

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    NYC, NY, USA
    Posts
    341
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Subway Violence Scenario

    Greetings Neil,

    The scenario is simple:

    You are on a New York City Subway Car, an "N" line, R-40 type car. This is a 6 double door car, with straight bench seats, only broken by the 3 sets of double doors on each side of the car.

    Between these facing bench seats are a few floor to ceiling poles and overhead bars and straps that standing people hold on to. People without seats stand here and against the closed doors. You are sitting in a bench that hold 7 people, you are 3rd from the center on the right side. The car is over, over crowded. People are holding on to the overhead bars and hand holds in adition to the center poles that run flor to ceiling. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to walk from one end of the car to the other, due to the crush of people and shopping bags, back packs and briefcases.

    The air conditioning is not working and the car is enroute underground between the Island of Manhattan and the Borough of Queens, under the East River.

    This confrontation starts with either: (you pick): the person siting next to you thinking you are taking up too much room and starts to spread into your space, pushing you against the passenger on the other side. OR, the person directly in front of you thinks your feet are too big and intruding into his space. In either case the other person lets loose with a few choice words and then IMMEDIATELY starts a physical confrontation. There is NO time to verbally deflect the person as by the time your mind registers a counter to the verbal assault the other person is banging on you.

    There it is Neil, Have fun!

    Regards,
    TommyK
    Tom Militello
    "You can't hide on the mats." Terry Dobson sensei.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    573
    Likes (received)
    17

    Default

    Ok, Tommy I'll play

    The scenario is still a bit vague, we need a specific attack to defend against, but the options are limited owing to the space, so, we'll take the guy beside us as the agressor.

    His range of attacks are limited so probably he will try to strike with a back fist or elbow, I can't believe that there would be no escalation but as that's the game we're playing, my defence has to negate the attack.

    My hands would already be in front of my body, perhaps across the chest (not crossed, just resting one on top of the other, I would also have my top arm on the side I perceived most threat, this is subconcious on my part). As his strike comes at me, it will be relatively weak owing to the restricted motion, I block with my available arm. This is just a matter of putting it in the way, there is no specific blocking action.

    His reaction is to begin to withdraw his arm to try again, he would probably also turn toward me slightly. As this happens I stomp on his foot, with my close leg and follow his arm back with my blocking arm, lowering the wrist as I go. The stomp makes him lean forward slightly, I use my far arm to flick into his face/eyes, it doesn't have to be a strike, just enough to get him to lift his hands and pull his head back.

    With my close hand I slip under his arms and grab a handfull of testicles. I mean a tight, squeezing, twisting, handfull. This should make him pull forward and bow his head. I then strike down with my other hand onto the back of his head, either with a hammerfist or elbow depending on range. My aim is to at least stun him, I place my hand on the back of his head and then slam it into my rising knee. If possible rendering him unconsious, or at least reconstructing his face a little. If need be do a couple of knees, they never go amiss.

    I then escape at the very next opportunity, you must be able to move or else no one would ever get off.

    This is probably the very maximum response I could give, at any point I can stop, depending on his reactions, but this would be over in a very short period of time, people would probably not notice, if they did there's going to be panic, but that will aid your escape.

    Not perfect by any means, but if we take an extreme I think it's workable, of course there's always dozens of "what if's" but we'll take them as they come.

    Neil

    [Edited by Neil Hawkins on 08-22-2000 at 03:51 AM]
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Outside of Phila.
    Posts
    1,492
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    interesting scenario. The previous poster had a good answer to the "sitting next to you" attack. I would probably block the elbow with the palm of the far hand, pushing up in a first control movement, then atemi to the ribs with my close elbow. When his arm comes down from the atemi, I would keep my close arm between his body and his arm, and sieze his hand with both of my hands, applying gokkajo. appropriate foot stomps are available as needed.

    If he is standing in front of me, I think I'd go right for the groin, then head butt as I stand up. Then what ever control presented it self. This scenario would worry me more, in the tight space you described.

    Ron Tisdale

  8. #8
    M Clarke Guest

    Default

    Hi All,
    I hadn't heard that train story. Had a similar experience with some chinpira (junior yakuza types) on a train coming back from Saitama to Ikebukuro. No "old guy" though.
    Neil, your response sounds like it would work for someone with "training" who initiates a formular (dojo) attack. But I reckon this person (the one sitting beside you)is going to do something chaotic, blindly enraged, no backfist stuff. He's going to smother you, both hands shoving, crawl on top of you and pound into your head and neck. Or he's going to lean forward and then come back with all his weight behind his elbow aimed for your face. My thoughts are that this close to someone, you aren't going to be doing monk fist boxing - probably more like grappling, gouging, biting kinda temple kata. <g>
    Rgds

  9. #9
    Osoto2000 Guest

    Default

    I think I'd get out my Zappo ray freeze gun and freeze him until it was my stop

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Perth, Western Australia
    Posts
    573
    Likes (received)
    17

    Default

    As I said give me a specific attack, and I'll defend against it.

    Even a grappling attack starts as a strike, if there's as little room as Tommy says, then the old needling elbow is (to me anyway)the most obvious attack.

    But what ever, I'm using elbows and knees, stomps to the feet and perhaps a head butt, but I don't like those. Either way the chances of getting out unscathed are fairly remote.

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    123
    Likes (received)
    0

    Wink

    Although I don't usually like "what ifs'" I'll play this, as I frequent public transport and I must sport a sign saying "ATTENTION: S**t Magnet" on my head.

    The most common defense I use is more of a subconsious reaction. (say the attacker is on my right side) then I reflexively pull away to my left and bring my right foot up onto the seat (mortal sin of public transport No1.) and my hands into a defensive position covering my head.
    This causes the person on my left to either stand up or push me away (acting like suspension), allowing me to either stand and dominate the attacker or cause the attacker to reach out giving me an arm to play with (remember they still have to reach over my knee).
    The foot is the in a position to throw th attacker off me onto the floor or give me enough play to secure the attacker in a restraining lock (whatever is available)

    The other option is if, instead of moving away, you move toward him, making it very difficult for him to strike with any force. I suggest in this case not looking him directly in the face as they usually spit or spray beer all over you (and that's just plain gross). Again I suggest putting one foot on the seat, with the knee in his chest/throat, and the other on the ground for balance. From this position you can very effectively strike him or at least convince him you were not invading his space as much as you could!

    Another option, if there is one available, is to use the support poles on the train. They are very effective tools in the use of restraining techniques (difficult to explain without diagrams). General leverage restraints, or pressure techniques.


    Yours in Budo
    Dale Elsdon
    (Tsutsumi Hozan Ryu)


  12. #12
    M Clarke Guest

    Default

    Meant to post again right after my earlier one with some after thought... apologies to Neil. It is easy to critique and rude not to offer something constructive as well. My earlier comment was meant to be more in the vein of muttering in my beer that it would as like be pretty messy that close up. Not so much that I saw a right or wrong response. Sorry about that Neil. I would probably resort to fingers in the eyes or throat, elbows and ball-twisting as well.
    Rgds

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    NYC, NY, USA
    Posts
    341
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default SLY GUY

    Greetings,

    Sorry guys, I slipped in a good one here. I set it up so that one of you would see (hopefully) that given the conditions I have set, the techniques must be performed WITHOUT involving any other passengers. Given the tight quarters, the lack of AC, and the constant movement of a train underground, NO ONE described really tight compact moves that would NOT involve steeping on, banging into, pushing or other wise involving any one else. The reason is that in NYC the result would have been a full scale riot.

    Sorry, if I tried to trick you guys, but I wanted to see if any one would mention it. But thanks to all of you who repsonded. I brought this up as both scenarios happened to me, although they stopped JUST SHORT of physical attack. I have always considered how I would have handled these 2 atttacks (1 next to me, and 1 in front of me).

    Regards,
    TommyK
    Tom Militello
    "You can't hide on the mats." Terry Dobson sensei.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Washington State, USA
    Posts
    3,324
    Likes (received)
    48

    Default

    What's the matter with causing a full-scale riot? I mean, if you intend on causing grievous physical harm to our friend(s), then starting a riot is an excellent idea. After all, if your move is subtle enough, then onlookers shouldn't notice your movement. Furthermore, given the ensuing trampling of evidence, the cops will subsequently have a real hard time figuring who it was who helped our friend(s) to lay upon the floor while fifty people kicked.

    For the guy next to you, remember the bureaucratic imperative, namely that an action passed is an action completed. Therefore a useful (and subtle) movement involves placing your elbow on his ribs, then striking your own fist firmly with the other palm. Like Newton's Balls, the inertia provides a nice strike, particularly if you time it with the movement of the train. He then recoils into the guy on the other side, who of course pushes back, which in turn recoils your guy back into you. So, if you have braced your elbow and shifted your center properly during the intervening quarter-second, this should give you a very nice second strike indeed.

    For the guy in front, try nukite into the hip flexors done while standing up (from the center, not the shoulders, doesn't work otherwise). This causes him to back up with no apparent movement from you, which in turn makes the people he bumped into start thrashing him. You, meanwhile, maintain center and exfiltrate...

    These moves work nicely on the dance floor, too.




  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    123
    Likes (received)
    0

    Wink

    Dancefloor!,


    HAHAHAHAHAHA, gasp, hahahahaha, wiping tears from eyes,

    the fond memories come flooding back.

    Thanks Joseph!




Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Peace without Violence?
    By spartanmachine in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 41
    Last Post: 18th February 2004, 18:28
  2. Sep Issue of Close Quarters Combat Magazine
    By Jeff Cook in forum Close Quarter Combatives
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 5th September 2002, 13:11

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •