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Thread: parry with the flat or edge?

  1. #16
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    From what I gather, the WMA people are generally not interested in the opinions of those practicing JSA. So if that is to be the case, I'd say let them figure it out on their own. The weapon construction, design and methodology is different anyway.

    I find it amusing that some people insist on "how Japanese swords were used" (based on logic, not on experience), and as Dan pointed out, which part of the sword is the strongest(!). No offense, but if you can't figure out what surface provides the strongest potential for force and resistance of force, then it is time to get to a dojo and practice.

    Speaking of which, if everyone has their own ideas on what part of the blade to use, perhaps it is best to just join a dojo and pick a method instead of arguing over which group is more wrong.

    This really has to be one of the sillier recurring debates. Sorry to be negative, but the information from different ryu-ha has been presented in the past, and has typically been discounted by those not experienced enough to state such opinions.

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    Nathan Scott
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    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #17
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    Originally posted by Jay Vail

    I am sorry, guys, these responses are not helpful. Of course you avoid parrying if at all possible. And of course your prime objective is to cut your opponent instead of parrying. But if you engage in any free play, you must know that these objectives are ideals that are not always capable of achievement in the breach.

    So, what is the recommended practice when you must block or parry? Edge or flat?


    Hello Jay

    I just wrote we use both techniques. I don't see why this is not helpful? As you say its a parry. So it involves deflection.

    To go into a little more detail My ryu deflects a downward cut from another blade downward with the edge. You are not going to spin a blade on it side to do this. The relative shape of a Japanese swords hilt (tsuka) is elipitical. This method is in the Ryu's manual call Gorin no Sho (Scrolls of the five Elements) We use a wrist twisting action to parry a long sword with short when holding two swords. This incorperates the flat of the blade.

    When dealing with a deep cut by raising the hands the edge is up to create deflection. There is a techniques which I am sure you have in western style when the power of the opponents cut is used to generate your own cutting power to devolop Enshin Ryoku. Circular movements with use of the hips.

    Also there is almost always a certain amount of body movement and re-positioning of the feet accompanied with parrys.

    Some of the things I mention are done by other Ryu.

    Kenjutsu has no protective armour... you go for it! If you dont parry or move correctly you end up in hospital. So as you can imagine we do a lot of training and I am on my second set of bokuto this year. Some of us have been practicing facets of this stuff almost daily for thirty years or so and take it quite seriously. With the classical cuts, some come from overhead and finish about an inch from the floor.

    I tried logging on to A few EMA sites and got laughed at as some would be samurai. Wish it was a bit more friendy

    Sorry you are not too happy with "The answer to a cut is another cut". But it is this and the principles of using kahanshin (lower body movement) have been studied for generations and are the principles of Japanese swordsmanship. The many years of fuedal war over here in Japan developed these arts. Throw away these priciples and it leaves us with nothing.

    As others have said its case by case and even if your blade is damaged you would still be alive.

    We use both the edge and flat... they both work.... They have to!

    Hyakutake Colin

    http://www.bunbun.ne.jp/~sword/
    Last edited by hyaku; 8th November 2002 at 00:01.
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


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    Red face Yep, I know that....

    Originally posted by Brently Keen
    I hadn't thought that anyone would take my last sentence literally, as it seemed obvious enough - my tongue was planted firmly in my cheek - of course no samurai would've muttered that particular expletive - it was merely a humorous transliteration.
    Nor would I think anyone would look at my little post and conclude that I had taken you literally. I was being facetious - note the smilie. It denotes playfulness and levity.
    David F. Craik

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    Originally posted by Jay Vail

    I am sorry, guys, these responses are not helpful. Of course you avoid parrying if at all possible. And of course your prime objective is to cut your opponent instead of parrying. But if you engage in any free play, you must know that these objectives are ideals that are not always capable of achievement in the breach.

    So, what is the recommended practice when you must block or parry? Edge or flat?
    ____________________________________________________________________
    By "free play," how long do you really think an engagement with razor sharp blades and no armor between two duelists would really last to have some extended type of "sword play" where use of the mune of a sword would be put into much use. Armed combat on a battlefield aside mind you. While none of us have been in a real sword fight (except that one American samurai guy out of Chicago, who beats ninjas off with a stick regularly), I think the closest non-lethal way to simulate a life and death duel would be to give two kendoka or koryuers some bokuto without protective gear, tell them the first strike decides the match and have them both sign away all their belongings and assets in any accounts, and then set them to it (multidirectional cameras and such couold be used for millisecond judging). I think sword duels take on a whole new meaning when you know you have only one shot at it. In this sense, the only #$#5-ing way anyone would deliberately block instead of cut IS the "OH ¤¤¤¤" method. If you don't like that answer, then your mind cannot grasp what japanese sword arts are about and no amount of explaining with change that. Accept it or move on. As for the mune, I am sure in the hands of a masterful swordsman, it might be used to "redirect" the on-coming sword out of the way (parry) to open up a strike, but it really depends on how much attacking force is being directed at that mune doesn't it? Your questions cannot be answered without fleshing out more details about the attack (force, type of strike (overhead, wound up, etc.), does the defender pivot the blade as the attack comes or just K-rady block it straight on?), and even then, it would be dificult to surmise an outcome.
    Greg Ellis
    I like autumn best of all, because its tone is mellower, its colors are richer and it is tinged with a little sorrow. Its golden richness speaks not of the innocence of spring, nor the power of summer, but of the mellowness and kindly wisdom of approaching age. It knows the limitations of life and it is content.

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    Sorry if I seemed a bit sharp and impatient in my last post. I thought you guys were blowing me off. I apologize.

    As one of you noted, this bit about edge v. flat is a pretty big divisive deal among the WMA folks. And the answer is really rather important. They do some pretty realistic fighting and their experience has shown that parrying/blocking is more often necessary than you might think. And experiments with edge parrying show that you quickly turn an expensive sword into a bad hacksaw. But many in WMA refuse accept these practical experiments as settling the question.

    The reason I came to you JSA people is simple. I’ve been doing martial arts since 1964. I’ve trained with people from all kinds of systems and styles, and I’ve learned something useful from every one of them. But not one of those systems had all the answers. I’ve had some exposure to kenjutsu, although it is shallow, and recently I’ve played with the WMA people. I see more similarities than differences between AMA and WMA, and I think you can and should use AMA to interpret the western fightbooks, which are really quite remarkable, and older than comparable texts in Japan.

    So I thought that the kenjutsu experience should be illuminating on the question. (As another person here pointed out, the WMA people often have closed minds about other MA, and JSA in particular. I’ve run into that in my discussions with them too, and I suspect it works both ways. Most MA people think their way is the only way.)

    Special note to “Greg”: I do not pretend to know what JSA is about. That is why I asked the question: for guidance and instruction. You would do well yourself, however, to calm down, listen, and look at what others are doing rather than to get angry. Some of the WMA people are stimulating weapons combat in a very realistic way. You could learn from that, if you kept an open mind. A lot of what you say is true. Combat involves mainly avoiding the blow, and fights without armor at least don’t last very long before someone takes a fatal cut. But there are times when you deliberately want to block/parry because when you do -- at least this is what the WMA people are finding -- it puts your adversary in a very vulnerable position for a counterattack. In fact, I have seen kenjutsu people do this exact thing. The defender baits an attack by standing in gedan-no-kamae. The attacker cuts downward from jodan to the head. The defender raises his blade to hiryu-no-kamae or something like it while stepping to the side, yet taking the cut on his blade, then cuts down his attacker. This is a deliberate move, not some oh s---t thing.

    Edge v. flat parrying is important also in halfswording. This is a technique that exists in both WMA and JSA, and involves placing one hand on the blade as support when the blades collide. Halfswording techniques in JSA and WMA are almost always done moving toward the opponent to intercept the blow rather than to avoid it. I once saw a Japanese painting of a samurai taking a horizontal cut to the body while defending it from a halfswording position. The painting dated to about 1750. He appeared to be taking the blow on the flat.

    Edge v. flat is also important in beat attacks. I assume you have those too in JSA because I have been taught them and I have seen masters using them. See for example the concluding sequence in the film Budo.

    Edge v. flat is important in defending against thrusts. I have seen Shoto Tanemura’s people defending thrusts with blade parries. They have a very cool way of doing it from jodan and it looked to me like they were using the flat (as a matter of fact, it was similar to a technique I learned for the bo). I have copied their technique and have used it successfully several times in free fighting. It works well with the flat.

  6. #21
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Charlie writes
    I think the jury's still out on the WMA community because they are attempting to reconstruct ideas without a continuous lineage or exact knowledge of what western steel was capable of. Actually, Harden-san - know anything about European weapons?

    Yes! Why bother writing about it?

    And as Nathan pointed out It all gets rather silly. Its fun to debate and talk about- but old swords are not new swords-and at a point you have to simply ask "What does each ryu teach?" And that is all you're ever going to know so move on.
    Beyond that every body is reconstructing to a degree.
    At the risk of Nathans further riddicule I would offer that I don't believe any of them fully. And I really don't care who they are and where they come from. They are- to a point- either an excellent source or just more repeated missinformed data. And the Japanese have every bit as much repeated missinformed research as any other culture.
    The WW11 sword tests are an example- they had no clue as to what the study truly revealed but here it is repeated by a Sensei (who the last time I checked was no engineer) so.... ooh-ah we better not question it. Lets just repeat it too! (no personal attack offered guys just a general observation)
    To me it's just more Budo Bullsh!t.

    The qualifiers are the steel, the smith, the ryu and the technique. Look at it all.

    Any notion that the Japanese have the cornerstone on 100% accurate information on antique combat skills and practice is hogwash.
    As Friday has pointed out from recent excavations with all the rock and arrow wounds instead of sword wounds- where is the rock ryu?

    Love the Budo
    but take everything with a grain of salt
    Dan Harden

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    Why bother? Well, cuz I would be interested in reading it. Can you point me to any sources (online, preferably) that illuminate the differences between European and Japanese swords?

    Jay, I feel you, bro. Also, I agree with those here who point out that the WMA folks should use what the AMA folks know to help them. Often, it seems they shut out everything coming from AMA/EMA because they don't want their practice to be adulterated. In so doing, they force themselves to reinvent the wheel. Some of them also freeze out the sport fencing folks because of the "sport" connotations. This also is a mistake - for years, sport fencers have been on the edge of reinvestigating or otherwise trying to keep alive old forms of blade combat.

    I'm down with the WMA folks - I'm even a card carrying member of a loose association dedicated to improving the public's knowledge of what constitutes WMA (SPATHA: the Society for the Promotion and Teaching of Historical Arms). But they really shoot themselves in the foot sometimes. I think the folks at AEMMA (www.aemma.org) are the best. Have you ever been to www.swordforum.com and lurked in their Euro section? Bunch of smart folks there.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  8. #23
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    Indeed there is a whole article about to block or parry in Sword Forum International (JSA section I think) which looks at all the potential avenues in a pragmatic fashion. Definately worth a read by anyone into JSA.
    Andy Watson

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    I think its safe to say that even if the edge is up or down there is still a certain amount of angle involved.

    Another thing that was not mentioned is the fact that we keep our single edge blades with the edge away because a weak parry could see us being cut by our own weapons. With some European weapons having a double edge I can see the difficulties arising there.

    Kendo people used to use unsharpened swords for kata demonstrations and had to buy a new set for almost every demo. Now they produce a specialy tempered type. But most of the damage sustained is to the cutting sword and not to the one that has been used to parry.

    I have survived in Japan because of the similarities and not the differences. Its a pity
    we cant be looking for similarities in European and Japanese sword arts rather than postulating which is best.

    Imai Soke (Niten Ichiryu) has an old diagram of sword principles presented to him by a Spanish fencing instructor and goes to great lengths to proudly show it to guests to say that Musashi was not so unique and that Western fencers possessed some of the same ideals.

    Hyakutake Colin

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    Originally posted by hyaku
    Kendo people used to use unsharpened swords for kata demonstrations and had to buy a new set for almost every demo.
    Naw, we just keep on using the same old beaters we've been using for decades (literally). They're pretty hacked up. All the damage occurs from edge to edge contact when we make mistakes (any hard contact in kendo-no-kata is supposed to be on the shinogi).
    Neil Gendzwill
    Saskatoon Kendo Club

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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jay Vail
    In fact, I have seen kenjutsu people do this exact thing. The defender baits an attack by standing in gedan-no-kamae. The attacker cuts downward from jodan to the head. The defender raises his blade to hiryu-no-kamae or something like it while stepping to the side, yet taking the cut on his blade, then cuts down his attacker. This is a deliberate move, not some oh s---t thing.


    In one of the kata we train in there appears to be this very move, yet the application is to not take the cut on the blade. Rather the application is morelike allowing the attacker to cut his own wrist, then finishing him off with a downward cut. In this instance that is the only thing that makes sense. I am much larger than my instructor yet have an incredibly difficult time in blocking his cut in this manner, in practice I allow his bokuto momentum to transfer speed to my own. But this is also not taking the cut on the blade.

    will
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    Posted by Dan Harden on 11-08-2002 01:24 PM:

    The WW11 sword tests are an example- they had no clue as to what the study truly revealed but here it is repeated by a Sensei (who the last time I checked was no engineer) so.... ooh-ah we better not question it. Lets just repeat it too! (no personal attack offered guys just a general observation)
    To me it's just more Budo Bullsh!t.
    Wait a minute!

    I do not want to be presumptuous, but I believe I was the one who posted the information on WWII sword breaking tests in Japan. In NO way did I post it as gospel truth to be accepted without question. And I certainly did not post it as representing my own views, not as what my teachers advocate, nor as an engineering report (a subject about which I know nothing). I posted precisely because it should be exposed to the light of day and questioned (as should all data, reports, and opinions). It is a well known sword test that Japanese swordsmen of that era always cite (see below). If they have misinterpreted the data, then why and how they did so should be discussed. It cannot be discussed here, however, unless someone first takes the time to translate the data into English and post it. If that is "Budo Bullsh!t," then excuse me!

    My own view is that swords break and that they (the older ones, at least) break more often and more easily than most of us would like to imagine. Reports of premodern battles and duels as well as Japanese Imperial Army statistics from before 1945 all suggest high rates of blade failure. Sword training that does not address this possibility is, in my opinion, deficient.

    I do agree with Dan Harden when he says: "The qualifiers are the steel, the smith, the ryu and the technique. Look at it all." I would only add: "and the level of skill." The same steel forged by the same smith and used by two different swordsmen from the same style who perform the same technique might fail in the hands of one and succeed in the hands of the other. Why? Because one held his tongue in the right part of his mouth and the other one didn't. (In other words, technique requires the proper knack.)

    Just to make things interesting, let me translate an account by another Japanese swordsman. This passage appears in a book by ISHIGAKI Yasuzô, whose father and grandfather both were headmasters of one of the main lineages of the Jikishinkageryû. This tradition rose to prominence during the late Tokugawa period, and many of its students became involved in the duels, revolutionary and counter-revolutionary activities of that time. As a result, members of that school emphasized the importance of owning a properly fitted sword. Ishikagi's book is titled: Jikishinkageryû gokui denkai (Revealing the Pivotal Points of the Jikishinkage Style of Swordsmanship; 1992, revised 2001).

    Again, this translation is NOT presented as the gospel truth. I do not accept Ishigaki one hundred per cent. Nonetheless, since views similar to his are commonly voiced in Japan, I believe they are worth our consideration and comment.

    ==========
    Ishigaki writes:

    This concludes my explanation of the gokui (pivotal points) and kuden (oral initiations) regarding the Jikishinkageryû's "Tachi seisaku kokoroe" (Sword Fabrication Conventions), none of which have ever before been revealed to the public.

    Before ending this section, though, I must emphasize that no matter how much care one might exercise in assembling one's sword furniture, no matter how excellent the quality of the sword furniture used, it is totally pointless unless one fits them to a reliable sword blade that is free from flaws. A trained swordsman must select a wazamono (good cutting sword) that is balanced, free from defects, and properly forged from quality steel so that it will not easily bend or break.

    Avoid striking with the back of the blade (mune uchi).

    In chanbara (sword play) movies and television shows frequently depict scenes in which the hero flips his sword around and strikes with the back of the blade. Supposedly he does so to indicate that he has no intention of cutting (i.e., killing) human beings, but [in reality] he could never have sufficient numbers of blades to do so. Because swords are weapons designed for cutting, they are forged so that their strength lies in the cutting edge of the blades. The backs of sword blades are their weakest points.

    The book Ten buyôron (Treatise on Swords for Military Applications) by the famous shin-shintô (New-New Sword Period; i.e., post ca. 1781) swordsmith, Suishinshi Masahide, describes numerous incidents when a sword broke from being struck on its back. I will briefly mention a few of them.

    [Note: Suishinshi Masahide (a.k.a. Kawabe Masahide, 1750--1825) almost single-handedly began the New New Sword movement through his exhaustive investigation of and revival of Old Sword manufacturing techniques. He trained over a hundred disciples, many of whom became noted smiths.---W.B.]

    (1) There was a man named Terada who lived in the same Akimoto Domain as Suishinshi. One night while at home Terada used the back of his sword blade to strike a burglar. The sword broke in half and the tip flew into the next-door neighbor's house. It was a sword made by Mizuda Kunishige with a very wavy (ô midare) edge pattern.

    (2) An underling in the same Akimoto Domain struck a dog with the back of his wakizashi. The wakizashi broke in half and the dog ran away. The sword was an unsigned blade with a very wavy edge pattern.

    (3) One of Suishinshi's disciples, a man named Kobayashi Masaoki, was talking to a retainer (i.e., samurai) named Motoyama from the Awa Domain when he happened to mention that long shintô (New Swords; i.e., blades manufactured between ca. 1570 and 1780) break very easily. Thereupon, Motoyama said, "If that is so, then here, take my katana and try to break it," and presented Kobayashi with his sword. When Kobayashi struck the back of the blade against one of the stones in the garden, it snapped like an icicle.

    (4) The Awa Domain retainer named Motoyama had tested the cutting ability of swords produced by various smiths, but he had never tested them for durability. Acting under orders from his lord, he proceeded to test a wide variety of swords, including ones that had been made by Inoue Kunisada, Echigo-no-kami Kanesada, Osafune Sukesada, Suishinshi Masahide, and many others. When the back of blades were struck against one another (i.e., mune to mune), all of the long swords broke and almost all of the short swords cracked along their cutting edges.

    (5) A porter in the Okayama Domain used the back of his sword to strike a thief. The sword blade broke in half. Thereupon, the porter picked up a bamboo pole and used it to knock the thief off of his feet. The porter tied up the thief, and inspected him for injuries. The thief had a big bruise where he had been struck by the bamboo, but no mark could be seen where he had been hit by the back of the sword blade.

    (6) A warrior named Nagai in Kôzuke Province tried to test his sword by striking the back of the blade against the side of his house. With the first blow the sword broke into three pieces. It was a long sword made by Kawauch-no-kami Kunisuke.

    The above incidents relate eye-witness accounts of swords breaking when struck on their backs. In addition, there is the well known story of Araki Mataemon of the Yagyû Shinkageryû. In 1634 when Araki and his brother-in-law, Watanabe Kazuma, were attacked by Kawai Matagorô and Sakurai Hanbei, Araki's sword broke in half as a result of being struck on its backside. The sword was a wazamono that measured 2.77 shaku (about 84 cm) made by Rai Kanemichi.

    During the war years durability tests were conducted on military swords. In 1943 I witnessed a public demonstration of these tests outside a department store near Ueno Park in Tokyo. The test consisted of dropping a iron ball about 50 cm in diameter and weighing about three kanme (about 11 kg) onto the center of a sword blade to see if it would bend or break. The results of this test showed that if the weight was dropped on the cutting edge of the sword, hardly any damage could be observed. But the sword broke easily when the weight was dropped on its back even if only from a height of 15 cm. It demonstrated just how weak the back of a sword blade is.

    Students of kenjutsu should know that even if they select a wazamono that is balanced, free from defects, and properly forged from quality steel so that it will not easily bend or break, that the back of the blade still is its weakest point and that, therefore, they must not imitate the actors in movies and television shows.

    =========
    The end of Ishigaki's remarks.
    =========
    William Bodiford
    Professor
    Dept. of Asian Languages & Cultures
    UCLA

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    Thumbs up

    Thank you, Professor Bodiford. That is very interesting material.
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