How dose Aikido represent itself in the media?

[ChrisHein]

Do you think people are being told honestly what aikido is and dose for you? Do you guys think that aikido acts like it's magical; do you think its magical, why, why not?


Thanx,
Chris Hein

[ChrisHein]

ok i'll get the ball rolling, I think Most thngs I read about aikido, elude to it being magical, and that it has no peers in the martial world because of this fact. I think that very little is said about how it can be a low impact martial art for seniors, or about how it can help you git through stuff in your life as a kind of theropy. I seldomly see any proponents of aikido telling of it's weekness, and I never hear anyone say, hey it's not magic, it's just a nice way to git togher. To much about O-senseis magic powers, and no one telling the truth that, no one else has been able to git these magic powers!

nope no magic,
chris hein

[ErikH]

OK, I'll bite.

Originally posted by ChrisHein
ok i'll get the ball rolling, I think Most thngs I read about aikido, elude to it being magical, and that it has no peers in the martial world because of this fact.

Well, I think this part of the topic has been beat to death. I've never seen magic that wasn't the result of skill. Of course, I've been in a seminar where the instructor claimed to see beams of light coming out of the head of his attacker. I, however, did not see any beams. No doubt due to my inferior knowledge of the universe.

I think that very little is said about how it can be a low impact martial art for seniors, or about how it can help you git through stuff in your life as a kind of theropy.

Well, I agree on this one but alas it has been determined by the 'board of internet posters' that discussion of such will label you as 'left coaster' and worthless within the MA community. My own personal opinion is that it requires a tweak in regards to what most people do in their day-to-day practice of mind-numbing repetition. It's scary s*** to open yourself to an attacker and a lot of people just won't go there although they think that by pounding each other into the mat, over and over, they'll get the same thing. Who knows, maybe they've got it right. I've really never seen any enlightened folks from either end of the equation.

I seldomly see any proponents of aikido telling of it's weekness, and I never hear anyone say, hey it's not magic, it's just a nice way to git togher.

Well, actually I have said things like this, as have others, many times. I have a lot of criticism over much of the practice I see. It disconnects on so many levels. You have people gronking on each other thinking they'll get spiritual enlightenment. You have others dancing through class thinking they'll just blend in effortless harmony and realign an attacker's misguided ki.

Personally, I think it's a beautiful movement art and enjoy doing it. I don't expect any major spiritual relevelations and realize that if I ever get in a fight my physical condition and bad attitude will take me as far as anything.

[John J. Montes]

Hope you don't mind if I get in on this: but for me, I see Aikido as an art which contains some really "intriguing" stuff in it. The problem for the deshi is this: a) you have to have a teacher who knows "the essence" of the art (i.e. its roots in jujutsu{broadly speaking}) and b) the student has to be willing to reach for that "essence"

I only have thirteen years so far studying this art...and I train daily with guys who either are or did study other arts (examples are karate{kyokushinkai}, judo, bjj, wing chung, etc.) and they all love Aikido.

I know however, that I am a lucky student...I train in New York where I have access to some of the best, so I'm not the median example...

And finally, due to my position at work, I have used the art in the street under "live" conditions...it works, no bullsh.., no magic, just the truth (amazingly, the most effective techniques are those that are the simplest {think ikkyo}).

that's my thoughts anyway

[ranZ]

Originally posted by ChrisHein
[B]Do you think people are being told honestly what aikido is and dose for you? Do you guys think that aikido acts like it's magical; do you think its magical, why, why not?

It depends on who's telling what.
But for what i have seen and feel, there is nothing magical about aikido.

[TommyK]

Greetings,

In our school, we incorporate elements of Yoshinkan and Tomiki Aikido. These Aiki moves are from the harder stream of the teachings of O Sensei. That said, I must comment that my perspective is not that of a purist nor that of a student of either of the styles mentioned, but that of one who uses the techniques in a self-defense mode.

On the other hand, I have always admired the philosophy of the art, especially the idea of it being an art of peace and love. Because of this I have studied the history of, and philosphy of the art, especially its development in America.

I have seen Yamada sensei, Sugano sensei and others teach; I have read works by O Sensei, his son, and grandson; sensei's Yamada, Pranin, Saito, Shioda, Tomiki, Nocquet, Tohei, Crum, Crane, Reed, Makiyama, Dobson, Saotome, Loi, Sosa, and others;I have explored Yoshinkan, Tomiki, Aikikai, Nihon Goshin and other styles using the 'Aiki' word in there style names, and I have seen amazingly effective practioners and others who performed equally amazing partnered dances. In short, I can honestly say that I believe I have seen the spectrum of the art as practiced in America.

I have admired many teachers I have seen, but one of the most lasting impressions was made by an Aikido teacher I never saw when he was alive, and that was Terry Dobson sensei. However, I did see a tape of his teaching and therein lies the point to this discussion.

The tape was made in the last years of his life, when he was terminally ill, teaching a seminar at a dojo in California. He 'talked the talk', the group hung on his every word and then the truth was in the viewing. While the participants practiced techniques, Dobson sensei walked around commenting, interacting and correcting.

It was obvious to see that the dojo being shown was of the 'Aikido as NOT a Martial Art' school. (Now that is fine, if one is perfecting the spirit, or doing a social exercise, similiar to dance, but do not call what you are doing martial.)

However, the episode that caught my eye and made the impression was where 2 students are doing the 'move', and they are really into the spirit of cooperation, and doing the magic 'aiki' thing and so on, then Dobson sensei approached them for corrections. He gave them what they wanted to hear, he spoke the magic of love, blending, being one with the universe and then he performed the 'move'.

As sick as he was, he performed the wrist technique on one of the students, and let me tell you, in doing that one simple technique I saw two things:

(1) Dobson sensei displayed amazingly effective technique, in a 'without a doubt' martial fashion.
(2) He had this little grin on his face that said 2 things at once: "Boy, am I having fun", and then "I talked the talk, because that is what I was paid for, but this is the way a true warrior performs this technique."

The morale of the tale is that the magic is fine, but as Terry Dobson could, you MUST talk the talk, then WALK THE WALK!

And as Forrest Gump would say: "Thats all I have to say about that!"

Regards,
TommyK

[David T Anderson]

No, I don't think Aikido _is_ magical...it just looks and feels magical, and until you practice it a lot and analyse in your mind exactly what's going on, it might as well be magic.

My Sensei can put me on the ground without touching me. Our senior student/instructor can absolutely throw me around with less force than I feel when my kitten jumps in my lap. I understand, I think, the psychological trickery and physical adeptness that allows them to do it, but I'm fairly sure I will have to spend much of the rest of my life learning to do the same thing.

Magic? No...it's something much harder and more wonderful...

[TommyK]

Greetings,especially to David,

As usual, no disrespect intended, but here in the Big Apple, NO ONE gets thrown without being touched! I'd like to believe it, but you'd have to beat me over the head before I'd accept it. Mom always called me 'Doubting Thomas' and she was right. If you believe you have been thrown without being touched, more power to you!

I do believe that proper physical techniques (hands-on)combined with subtle rediretion of balance and intensity can throw a person. That is not to say that I disbelieve in Ki, and the possible re-direction of that energy. I'm just saying it HAS to be involved with physical contact of some type, or a VERY quick change of body direction causing the person going for you to fall without being touched.

I have had that happen on the basketball court, where someone 'shakes and bakes' you, you go wholehearted for the fake and then fall, stumble or whatever, because the guy beat you on the move by going in the other direction. Thats not Ki, just good body movement and extremely fast coordination and reflexes.

Remember, the pyschological relationship between a teacher and student can cause the student to believe wonderful things have happened. They may have, by slight manipulation of the pysche and the willingness to believe on the part of the student.

I wish you, and those who believe it is magic, to keep that view and enjoy it for what it is. But remember, if a bad guy is coming at you, you are NOT going to throw them without physical contact, unless its a 'shake and bake' as described above. Thats the way I see it here in the Big Apple!

My two cents: you get what you pay for.
Regards,
TommyK

[David T Anderson]

[grin] Tommy -- I didn't say I got thrown...only that he can put me on the ground. Yes...to put it bluntly it's a 'fake-out'..a psychological trick. The point is, it has worked on me repeatedly [nearly always by surprise, mind you].

And this is what I mean when I say it seems like magic...and it _is_ Aiki...my attack is broken and stopped without resorting to violence [ie. destructive force] that demeans or dehumanizes both of us.

Most people can't understand stopping violence with anything but violent resistive force...but O Sensei found a way and this teaching has been handed down to us to do our best to emulate. _That_ is the real magic of Aikido, if you like...

[TommyK]

Greetings David,

I'm glad we are on the same page. Be forewarned that I would prefer to travel a peaceful road, but sometimes that is not always possible.

If confronted by a sudden violent attacker, I can't predict how I would react as I have trained in Korean Karate and Self-Defense which includes elements of Judo and Aikido. I may instinctively block and then punch and/or kick, or block and enter for a Judo throw or I may blcok/evade and enter for an Aiki wrist technique. I always hope I can block/evade and then control the atacker through an Aiki wrist move. Its safer for both the attacker and myself. However, one can only say: "If I ever was tested I hope I would pass".Thank you for your comments.

Regards,
TommyK

[ChrisHein]

Sorry for interrupting the stimulating debate going on between you two, but I really wish David’s teacher would enter the u.f.c. and ki through, or fake out or "shake and brake" Tito Ortiz, or any one else for that matter. I think it's a physiological trick alright, the trick is your his student, and you really wanna believe that he is one serious dude, other wise you've been wasting your money, time and effort.

I may instinctively block and then punch and/or kick, or block and enter for a Judo throw or I may blcok/evade and enter for an Aiki wrist technique. I always hope I can block/evade and then control the atacker through an Aiki wrist move.

Yea Tommy I hope to do some block, kick, punches, too, followed by my favorite, spin kick, shuto ax elbow, then maybe I can jump spin, call to Jesus Christ, chest bump, knee bar. Next time I’m in the “big apple”.


Chris Hein

[Peter H.]

Chris,

I think your confusing two different things, the ability to defend ones self and the ability to fight. No matter what the UFC might try to convince you of, it is still a fairly controlled sport with rules, and those rules are geared towards Jujitsu. Remember that the UFC was started by one of the Gracie brothers to showcase Royce and Gracie Jujitsu. Not to belittle their accomplishments, but it is the truth. Pick up an unedited copy of UFC 1, I watched it back in '93, and listen to the commentator's talk about Royce's brother being the producer and booker. I understand that some of the newer copies of the show have these comments edited out. But I can not testify to that fact.

Anyway, the UFC has rules. Self Defense does not. The best training for self defense is not martial arts. It is environmental awareness and the ability to run quickly for a long period of time. Self confidence can also go a long way to helping to defend yourself, because people who want to fight/rob/hurt others look for the easy targets. Last night at work we had three members of a gang harass and threaten a lady, once I show up, they button their holes and try to weasel out. I have never laid a hand on any of them or their gang, but my attitude and appearance is one of confidence and I will take no crap from them, as such, they don't want to be involved with me. That can come with any martial arts training, doesn't matter what the style is as long as you practice dilligently and believe in it.

Last time someone did decide they wanted to attack me, they did it with a gun, from a car, at long range, and left quickly. Doesn't matter what martial art you study, there is no defense against that.

[Peter H.]

Slight correction. Last time someone seriously attacked me and went through with it was with a gun. There have been other confrontations since then, but my prospective attackers all decided it was better to walk away than to go through with their plans.

[TommyK]

Greetings,

Hi Chris, my point was that in an UNEXPECTED attack, like on the cramped narrow staircases leading to the #7 train at Grand Central Station, I don't know how I would react. I used those examples to give David an idea of my options. If I do kick and punch and the bad guy goes down the stairs, head first, then I may face criminal and civil charges. 0n the other end of the spectrum, if I can control the bad guy, on the landing with a wrist technique, then the chances of civil and criminal charges are reduced. In summation, I believe I was trying to show David, that attacks may come 'totally out of the blue'. I try to follow Col. Cooper's advice, I stay in 'condition yellow' 99% of the time, but even then, things can still surprise you. I'm sure PeterH would agree with this expression on unexpected attacks.

Regards,
TommyK

[David T Anderson]

Originally posted by TommyK
Greetings David,

I'm glad we are on the same page. I would prefer to travel a peaceful road, but sometimes that is not always possible.

If confronted by a sudden violent attacker, I can't predict how I would react ...

Well Tommy, I've never studied any other martial art, so I guess I have only one set of reactions. Actually, that would be two sets..the Aikido set and the 'what the hell should I do...oh, I'm dead'' set.

But I think we're getting away from the original topic:

Do some Aikidoka claim that their art works by 'magic'? Yes, some probably do, and they're wrong. My rejoiner is that Aikido _seems_ like magic, but isn't really. It's simply amazing what can be done by people who have found a different [I hesitate to say 'better'] way of dealing with violence.

Do some Aikidoka believe their art makes them martial-art badasses? Yes, some probably do, and they are wrong too. My point of view is that Aikido is very useful and powerful, especially for people who for whatever reason aren't interested in _fighting_, but want to learn how to deal with trouble. A lot can be accomplished just by thinking clearly about the subject.

Aikido was never designed or intended to be used mainly against seasoned martial artists. It was intentionally designed by O Sensei to combat the random and senseless violence in every day life and our own hearts. For that, I think it can and will serve very well, if we dedicate ourselves to it. For me, that is its selling point. The fact that it _seems_ magical, and has boosted my self-confidence is the icing on the cake.