The Best

[Zoyashi]

Hi Jay,
Actually, I'm a karate and Jujitsu practicioner. I've studied both Okinawan and Japanese karate, as well as Kyokushin, which owes a heavy debt to Muay thai. My arguments are based on my personal feeling that the years I spent in Kyokushin doing muay-thai like training (lots of bagwork, endurance and toughness conditioning, a focus on simple techniques executed powerfully and at speed under duress) did a lot more to develop me as a fighter than did the years I spent learning kata and bunkai and punching from a rooted stance. Maybe my experience was unique, but I doubt it. I'm not suggesting that karate lacks some integral piece that makes it inferior. I'm just proposing that specialization is the path to success. Who punches better, a boxer or a taekwon do stylist? Probably the boxer. Karate, as a well-rounded fighting art, attempts to do a bit of everything - punch, kick, throw, lock. It made sense to integrate those elements of combat in that time and place - isolated okinawan villages, for the most part. But the world is different now. Cross-training is not a deadly insult to the master, and a lot more information is available to us. I'm not saying that no karate practicioners can throw and lock, but as a rule, throwing and locking is best taught and learned by grapplers - judo and jujutsuka. For my money, you're better off learning to do three or for things well (a la muay thai) than learning four different uraken, five different shuto, nine different kicks, seven different blocks, 9 kata, etc.
My problem is that many modern karate practicioners try to have their cake and eat it, too. You can't be good at everything at once. You either need to specialize, which means trimming the fat, or admit that you throw okay, but there are people who throw better.
Josh Gepner

[MarkF]

Hi, John,
That isn't quite the exact quote so that is why I didn't place it in quotations, but it is close.

The Judo of 180 degrees=Aikido, or more correctly for the time frame; Aikibudo. Think of one of the masters, or of Uyeshiba when he was younger, before 1942, anyway. Think of a demonstration of a throw, perhaps Sumiotoshi (it is the same basics and principles in both judo and aikido, but they do look different).

Uke is at whatever the maai is, and he takes off for the attack, tori grabs from the side closest to uke by the arm, starts the throw from one side and completely turns him over, one side of tori to the other side of tori, while tori is very close to the ground. He is not standing at any point of this throw. When he catches uke, the drop is a complete arc of 180 degrees. Now the judo way of the throw. Tori and uke grip, tori steps in, and with only a grip on the sleeves of uke's dogi, he completes the throw, from a standing vertical position to a horizontal one, where uke falls. If you turn it upside down, the throw started as the vertical part of the 't' and drops and turns uke so he hits the mat flat or on his side, it doesn't matter. Kyuzo Mifune-sensei actually discovered this throw when he wondered "I would love to do a throw where I don't touch the body of my opponent." Since the original throw was done only by grabbing the bottoms of the sleeves of the uwagi, he was able to achieve that. There are other, similar throws, and today's judoka usually do the throw with one hand gripping the jacket, the other holding the sleeve on the opposite side. This was one of Mifune's kukinage throws. In aikido terms, it would be similar to kokyunage, but the reference isn't to the actual air we breathe, but something more esoteric than that. The point is made, though.

That is the judo of ninety degrees.

When I first read that, it made so much sense to me, I understood aikido a little better, though my only experience was a shodokan (Tomiki) dojo in NYC for a few months. IOW, with the arc complete in the aikido version that is what Kano meant when he said that. It wasn't better, it was simply another 90 degrees to a judo throw which was a total of 90 degress.

I may have that article in my files, so I'll look for it, but if you did a search in this forum, and one in the aikido forum, I'm sure you will find it. Use search words such as degree or 90 degree, something like that. If that doesn't get you there, then do an entire fora search. Use the search button at the top to make the search a little larger or smaller.

It was posted here, I think this year so you should find it. I am thinking of an article, but it may be in a book due to come out in a few months or less and is copywrited, so if you find it, then I'd be off the hook, if you know what I mean.


Mark

[MarkF]

BTW: John, another very similar throw is uki-otoshi, or floating drop throw. The difference, in judo, is that instead of stepping in to complete the throw, tori steps back. Otherwise, it is the same throw, and some flat-out say it is. Today, it is a step back, then taking a knee while turning uke so he makes the same ninety degree turn. It is much easier that way, but then it isn't supposed to be easy, it is supposed to be effective. Either way, aikido or judo, there are some great similarities.

Some judo throws do make the 180 degree fall. Sumi gaeshi, a sacrifice throw is one of those. The other more common throw is Tomoenage. The difference is that tori goes to his back while uke is thrown to the corner, in sumigaeshi (corner throw), turning uke to make the complete turn. Tomoenage is more direct, a foot in the stomach/lower abdomen, getting a grip of the sleeves above the elbows, and throwing him straight over tori while tori is flat on his back. That's another 180 degrees. The difference is that aikido has many more than has judo.


Mark

[John J. Montes]

Cool...thanks for the reply