Crane-Fist???

[Paihequan]

Does anybody on the E-Budo Forum practice or teach any aspect of Crane-Fist in either the Okinawan or Chinese forms???

[fuwafuwausagi]

Yes...

TFB

[Paihequan]

Kevin,

In what form do you practice Crane-Fist ... Okinawan or Chinese? What forms (Kata/Taolu) do you do?

What attracted you to Crane-Fist?

[fuwafuwausagi]

Ron:

I don't mean to be a jerk or anything but this is a RyuKyu forum and I have yet to believe their is anything more than a fanciful connection between most Okinawan kara-te(M.Chinto being a notable exception) and Paihe quan. In other words I have to question the validity of this thread in a RyuKyu forum.

Personally I find all this karate/crane thrill-craze a bunch of nonsense.

So here is a summary of how I truly feel. If you have ever seen white crane jin expressed, how could anyone mistake that for Okinawan karate? I mean the Okinawans would have to be retarded or something to "botch" crane type energy transmission that bad. And I have a heck of a time believing there is any connection between the way Okinawan kara-te develops energy and white crane. I might believe Okinawan kara-te mantis or perhaps some Shaolin but crane...no way.

Having said that, let me clearly state that I love Okinawan kara-te, I also love crane. But I think they are two distinct animals without regard to the desire of a bunch of greedy hustlers trying to make a buck making people think otherwise.

A few years back one of the pressure point guys asked me to teach white crane principles at their winter camp. I went there and taught white crane. The karatekas there simply had little ability to absorb the information and about the only people who understood it and enjoyed the session where the Tai Chi players present and their instructor. To me, that says it all.

All the best,

TFB

[kusanku]

I do Okinawan karate, and ahve done some Taiji. I don't know any white crane. There sure is a difference in how Taiji expreses jin and Okinawan karate does it.I hear that White Crane soft stuff is identical to Taiji though. If so, that is very different indeed, from Okinawan karate styles which,themselves, differ in some ways in which they develop atemi, sharp striking power.

My understanding of White Crane is that they Phlap, something like the wings of a crane. Never seen an Okinawa te man Phlap, yet.Even in chinto.

My understanding of what styles are related to Shorin ryu is maybe Northern Shaolin, some suggest a connection with Hsing Yi,too.

Goju Ryu may be related in some ways to Wu Chu Ch'uan, Five Ancestors Fist, maybe Pa Kua and Pa Pan Ch'ang, too,or so it is suggested. I don't know for sure but looks as though it could have some connection.

Phlap.Double Phlap.Beak.

Oss!

[Paihequan]

Gentlemen, to each his own.

Crane-Fist in the Chinese sense of things suits me.

[Ja Pe]

In reply to Kusanku's quote
My understanding of White Crane is that they Phlap, something like the wings of a crane. Never seen an Okinawa te man Phlap, yet.Even in chinto.

Are you familiar (being that you are an Okinawan te man expert!) with the kata Tensho? and more importantly the correct applications (bunkai)associated with the kata? Just to give you a bit more info on the principles of what Crane techniques represent Tensho is a perfect example. If you have a different interpretation, great! but understand your interpretation if the kata is done similar is the same as what is known as crane, At least in dynamics.

People can often be very mystic like when explaining techniques that are hard to descibe and so crane etc can be used as a picture or example of what is being explained.

I have been studying martial arts ,in particular okinawin/japanese styles, dedicated to the practical side and application for over 22yrs ( 2-4sessions per week + personal study and training).
I have come across "KNOCKERS LIKE YOU" too many times.

I am not defending anybody from this post nor do I know anybody on the forum at all.

Please for your own sake refrain from knocking what you don't understand. As if you where good at what you claim to represent you would understand there is more than one way to punch (or skin a cat)
You have shown you at least do not a a though understanding of Okinawan Karate, I won't even argue that point as I've been like I said studying a LONG time and have trained and learned from some very good instructors of MORE THAN JUST WORDS.

I do not knock you for not understanding but I do already have no respect for your comment to the initial fisrt post question!

[Paihequan]

Ja Pe:

Hi. Ithink that the E-Budo rules ask that you sign your name to your posts.

As for Kusanku, I think you'll find his comments were more "tongue -in-cheek" than thy were knocking the subject of Crane. You have to remember that there is a great deal of people "out there" who lay claim to doing Crane-Fist, many pararding around in a coat made from it's feathers.

Beyond Tensho is the form "Ba Bu Lien Er Lu" which is the original Chinese form from the Ryuryuko lineage said to have given rise to "Tensho". In it's proper form it contains many similarities with Goju's Tensho kata while following the basic pattern of Pah Puh Lien.

[Ja Pe]

I did not mean to come across as harsh as most reply post read.
And to to kusanku I do not intend any PERSONAL dis respect. I do though believe by knocking somthing you don't understand yourself is more detremental to oneself than it is to the person you are knocking!

If some guy wants to run around in a suit of feathers and teach what he believes to be crane style let him...And if he attracts students more the power to him ..he may just be onto something, it may not have any merit or depth but who's to say it's not.

Ron, in the other form you mention the pre-seeds Tensho, and may I add here that I have seen many many many forms of tensho!!!huhuh
So what type of bunkai are apparent in the form you speak of.
Is the form easy to read/interperate ie:can you see the applications leap out at you?
If you do this form do you practice more on solo/holistic or health approach or do you concentrate on the intent of the form in its true meaning of application.

Sorry for going around in circles the main question I'd like answered is:
What is the main theme of the applicationsor bunkai.

main reason I ask is I'm one who truley believes in learning a kata or form or what ever name it has, ONLY after I have certain affirmation of the effectivness of the application. Unfortunatly in my early training years I was filled with allot of USeLESS kata made more for show than application, thesedays I do train with a few GOOd martial artist from very varied disiplines.

The most knowlagable are the ones who earn respect by their actions not by thier tough words like "oh...but I learned from this guy who was taught by this guy and his grandfather had a brother who taught him, so 'I' must know what I'm talking about...." To me this person has spent to much time in history class trying to make up for their lack of physical talent and BELIEVE that by doing so history homwork makes them better martial artists.

I prefer to walk the walk, give credit where credit is due sure if you must but when it comes down to it, when it comes to the crunch the only person who can take the credit is yourself.For actually putting into practice what you've learned and well.
Being the pupil of a well known teacher or head of a style or great fighter doesn't give you are of their level.
Sorry to go on guys just can't get over the site in general.
I guess I'm glad we all have fists to back up our heated words at times!


Jay Pertage

Jay & Kevin,

I agree with many of the points you have made.

Like Kevin I don't buy into the new "White Crane/Karate" craze that has become popular over the years for the main fact that I have yet to see anyone say "OK, in Chinese White Crane you have this thing and this is where you can find it in Okinawan karate". To date nobody has come out with any sort of demo tape that shows just exactly how White Crane and Karate are connected. I for one am only marginally curious to see one as I have no doubt Chinese arts influenced Okinawan arts to some degree, it is doubtful we will ever know how much. In the "big picture" what does it really matter? Not much really............it might be a good marketing ploy to sell books and such but it won't change the effectiveness of what I do. I prefer to concentrate on what is in front of me rather than what "might" have been.

Originally posted by Ja Pe

I prefer to walk the walk, give credit where credit is due sure if you must but when it comes down to it, when it comes to the crunch the only person who can take the credit is yourself.For actually putting into practice what you've learned and well.
Being the pupil of a well known teacher or head of a style or great fighter doesn't give you are of their level.

I agree. Technique talks and BS walks.

Originally posted by Ja Pe
I guess I'm glad we all have fists to back up our heated words at times!

This I don't agree with.
No reason to get in a fight over someone's heated words or something someone says on these forums..........just not that important.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Paihequan


...
Beyond Tensho is the form "Ba Bu Lien Er Lu" which is the original Chinese form from the Ryuryuko lineage said to have given rise to "Tensho". In it's proper form it contains many similarities with Goju's Tensho kata while following the basic pattern of Pah Puh Lien.

I'm told Ba Bu Lien Er Lu doesn't look any more like Tensho than the two version of Happoren I am familiar with.

Who is this man you credit with being Ryuryuko? Is it Xie Zhangxiang? That seems to be a popular choice thanks to the work of Patrick McCarthy but I don't know if I buy in to that. Below is something I posted on the vital point forum in response to your posted your annoucement that you teach the 'original goju but you didn't respond to it. I was asking you who you thought Ryuryuko, the man you credit as being the source of 'Original Goju, was.

So do you think Xie Zhangxiang is Ryuryuko or is it someone else?

Note: I now have two set of histories of Ryuei Ryu that conflict I also have some other info from Okinawa on Ryuei Ryu that I need to try to reconcile before I comment further on the subject. I'm am just short on time today so I am doing a lazy cut and paste. Take care and have a good week.

Ed Boyd


From http://budogeeks.tzo.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=140

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Xie Zhangxiang according to the books lived from 1852-1930. Higashionna Kanyro lived 1853-1915. It has been recorded that Higaoshionna Kanyro described Ryuryuko as an old man but Xie was only a year or so older than Higaonna. It appears that the kata that Higaoshionna taught his students were Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseru and Suparinpei. Higashionna's decendants claim he only spent 3 years in China so I don't know if he would have learned that much in 3 years. Remember the old saying "3 years Sanchin."

Before going to China Higashionna was a student of Aragaki Seisho. I believe Higaoshionna's tode came from Aragaki. There are a couple of sources that document how Aragaki's people demonstrated their martial arts at a festival celebrating the acension of the last Okinawian king. I don't have my books with me but I believe it was March 1867. This was before Higaoshionna went to China. The accounts mention Suparinpei and Sanseru being demonstarted I believe.

Miyagi in Historical Outline of Karate-do from 1936 discussed how much of karate's history was a mystery but the only statement Miyagi Sendai seems to really make with conviction concerning the history of Goju is:

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"In the mean time, there is the only opinion we can trust. It is as follows: In 1828 , our ancestors inherited a Gung-fu style of Fujian province in China. They continued their studies and formed Goju-Ryu karate. Even today, there still exists an orthodox group which inherited genuine and authentic Goju-Ryu karate."
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Is this Ryuryuko's legacy? Was he the source I have no idea but this would make him an old man by the late 1870's.




Norisato Nakaima founder of Ryuei-Ryu was also a student of Ryuryuko. Ryuei-Ryu also practice Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru and Seiunchin. Their forms are somewhat simililar to Goju. I was looking for information on Norisato Nakaima and I found on a Ryuei Ryu website that: (http://karate.ucsd.edu/history.shtml)

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"Norisato Nakaima was born on December 11th, 1819 at Kume village in Naha. He is the grand grandfather og 5th generation, Kenji Nakaima, and orginated Ryuei-ryu.
....
After one-year of preparation, Norisato went to China to practice Chinese martial arts at the age of 19.He went to Beijing via Fukushu, Fukuken-sho, which used to be the gateway to Okinawa. He became a student of Master Ru Ru Ko, the Shihan at the Military School of the Ching Dynasty with the introduction of the general.
.....
After Norisato practiced all day long for several years with Master Ru Ru Ko, he finally received a certificate of graduation and returned to Okinawa when he was 26.

After Norisato's death (1819-1879, 61 years old), Ryuei-ryu passed its skills to the third, Kenchu (1856-1953, 98 years old), the fourth, Kenko (1911-1989, 79 years old), and the fifth, Kenji (1934-). "
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If he did get his menyo from Ryuryuko at age 26 and if his birth year is correct then this put us at 1845, which is 8 years before Xie was born. That a lot of ifs but it is something I have been thinking about.


At least knowing the existence of Ryuei Ryu and it similarities to Goju and its shared lineage makes me believe Ryuryuko exists. For a brief period I started to think he may have just been some sort of legend created for some who knows what kind of reason. Nonetheless I think the core forms of Goju Ryu were on Okinawa long before Higashionna went to China but I guess that still doesn't rule out Ryuryuko as the source but right now I don't think Xie Zhangxiang was the person taught Higashionna. But who knows I may change my mind on all of this as I learn more about it.

[kusanku]

Hi Guys.

Someone named Jay who says he has no personal disrespect for me, but that I don't know Okinawan karate or anything of value at all, glad you don't disrespect me personally, then says he got fists to back his talk, gee whiz Jay, that isn't wuite the atitude I learend in thirty eight years of martial arts:-), thirty of them in Okinawan karate of three styles,but hey, to each his own-

Anyway, Jay says he can tell this about me from one post, that I don't know what I am talking about. Heck, Ron got it in one, I was kidding, not attacking White Crane Kung Fu, a fine art.But too,I do know that Okinawan karate and white crane kung fu, do use two completely different power generation methods, and flap, double flap and beak, are in fact, White crane power generation methods or Jin patterns.

Jay, before you step in here any deeper, please do me a favor; do a Google search on Kissaki-Kai Malaysia, go to that site, and read the articles, last in the articles section, on Vengel-Kai one through ten, then come back and tell me what I don't know.

Perhaps you will be so kind after reading them, as to tell me wherein I have erred in my understanding of the effective aplications of Okinawan and Japanese Karate Kata.

As for tensho, I been doing that kata for twenty-six years.As for applications of tensho, they are pretty obvious, striking, cover and repel, which are crane principles but not necessarily done as in Tensho, and reversals of grabs and entry to locks, as well as dissoves from chin na, and kyusho attacks. These however, can be found in many Okinawan kata, including some which many find useless because they do not understand what they are doing.

If what you say is true, I better give my Fifth dan back to mon teacher, and start all over again.Durn. Here I thought I was actually learning some real karate, too.But heck, now I find out, I don't even know what I'm doing and am all talk and no action. plus I got no fists to back me up case I am challenged.Where did mon fists go, ennyway?

Poor poor pitiful me.Sniff.

[CEB]

Originally posted by kusanku
....
I got no fists to back me up case I am challenged.
...

Then I would use a crobar or maybe a baseball bat. Always worked for me. But, I really prefer the 3 foot crobar.

[kusanku]

Ed, that sounds good to me. I shell hold it in mon teeth and spin it as in Matayoshi Kobudo to defend mine impinged upon honor.

Advantage of the three foot crobar is that it won't break if you hit on the seal as a Louisville slugger somnetimes will, plus the aluminum bats are no good.Crobars, now, that's a real weapon, stand up to a lot of abuse.

Thanks, Buddy!

[Paihequan]

Ja Pe:A little word of advice ... don't take everything to heart. The arts while important are not the be all and end all. Have a laugh at the arts and yourself now and then. It helps to keep one grounded in the real world. Kusanku was only having a little bit of fun over the whole "White Crane" scene and to be honest I have to agree with him and Robert in that it certianly seems to be a bit of a joke at the present time.

I guess I'm glad we all have fists to back up our heated words at times!

Whoa! Who said anything about knuckling up! Relax as Robert said there is nothing posted on these boards worth going down that path.

As for its connection to Okinawan Karatedo well I have to agree with Robert, Kusanku etc ..... it does not seem to be all that much of a real connection especially in the area of technique, forms and the essence or core principles of the art. I think the connection is found more in lore than in the real art.

Ed as for the Ryuryuko connection, I can only go on the form as it came down to me:

Master Huang Sheng-Shyan also learnt Fujian White Crane directly from Xie Zhong-Xiang, from the age of 14. After a few years of personal tutorage, Huang Sheng-Shyan still only in his late teens, was sent by Xie Zhong-Xiang to study full-time for two years with his eldest disciple Ch’en Shih Ting.In 1930 Master Huang went on to train with another famous White Crane exponent P’an Ch’un-Nien, who also began teaching him the use of medicinal herbs, and stimulated an interest in Huang for other Chinese Martial Arts. In pursuit of these Huang Sheng-Shyan moved to Shanghai, where he first began teaching White Crane. Ba Bu Lian Er Lu is considered by this school to be the form which gave rise to Goju Karatedo’s “Tensho” form.

You raise some very good points worth considering. The form as I know it does closely resemble the Pah Puh Lien (Happoren/Paipuren) in its basic pattern but interestingly does contain a sequence to the left and right that closely resembles Goju's Tensho.