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    Default Different Approaches

    I have heard a lot about how different countries approach the teaching and study of judo, and I have *some* idea of how it is generalized, but can anyone elaborate?

    What I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you will find traditional, repetition-centered and technical judo in Japan at the Kodokan and affiliated dojos, although many schools do a more brutal version of this, where students have to fend for themselves and learn through a baptism of fire.

    The European approach, from what I can tell, dictates that instead of learning every throw and every nuance of every throw, you learn what's best suited for your physicality, and concentrate on two or three killer moves.

    Americans seem to combine judo with wrestling and whatever else they are learning, particularly BJJ, and are split between a European and Japanese approach. Maybe?

    What's the Cuban approach? What's the Chinese approach?

    Is any of this making sense?
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    A very interesting topic. I wonder if there is a difference within the umbrella of European judo between the former Soviet Bloc nations and the western countries. This is just speculation, but the Olympic (competition) oriented training by the former communist countries might have developed a more athletic style, meaning speed; timing; power; endurance, rather than a technique oriented style. Of course, the Soviets' (Russians') judo was heavily influenced by SAMBO, which was derived from a synthesis of the native wrestling styles of the various peoples within the USSR and judo.

    I wonder if the French manner of judo differs much from the British method spread from the Budokwai, which might have been more traditional? I've never played with a Brit, but I have experienced a French player who moved about the mat in a circular manner and attempted to break my balance by pulling to the outside of the circle. He referred to this as the Kawaishi (sp.) method.

    This is a great topic for me, as I struggle to learn an upright, technique oriented style, rather than using my 6-1/260 lb. body to power thru defenses and wrestle an opponent. I always come back to the dilemna of doing what comes natural versus actually learning a certain way. Maybe that's a topic for another post.

    Tal Stanfield

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    Caution: Long rant. If you do not have time, please scan or pass. Thank you for your support.


    Charlie,
    No, you make perfect sense, as does Tal (welcome Tal!). While it may be more territorial (there is one kind of judo at the Kodokan, perhaps, while at the Kosen dojo or the university dojo (Waseda) had entirely different manner and effects with judo, but as much as the term "If it is Kodokan, it is judo, and if it is judo, it is Kodokan" rings true throughout the world, there are probably hundreds, perhaps more, manners of training, the emphasis on training (how and why, etc.) could be said to be different from dojo to dojo, region to region, and/or country to country (I hope that Aaron Fieldgets into this with the Judo of Mongolia).

    Unfortunately or not, I didn't really see that in my travels (New York, Los Angeles/California state-wide, and in Mexico City where most of their Olympic Judo team trains, but is similar to cities far away but in the same country, such as in Guadalajara. The social interaction, the respect and courtesy, which techniques are taught and drilled first do differ. It is a different way of living, and just like going to Japan, it is a different culture, one I found after four years that I just didn't enjoy as much as I thought after some time. The work ethic is outstanding in Mexico and it carries over to the Judo tatami.

    In fact, it was in Mexico where I heard tell of the Kawaishi Mikonosuke "style" of judo. They really believed Kawaishi methods were anothe judo, eg, Kawaishi Judo, not Kodokan Judo. That isn't true, of course, bet once it is in the head...Stubborness, thankfully, is in the youth and is not misspent.

    To most at the state supported national judo club in Mexico City, these are or were two distinct styles of Judo, they said, but it wasn't different enough to really be something outside the world of Kodokan judo, it was simply a slightly modified version of the judo we all practice, though with those who called them selves "Kawaishi stylists (in English, anyway)" did use a fair amount of atemi in their randori. That was really the only difference besides those of referring to throws such as seoi nage as kata seoi, but don't tell the younger adults that. They were not to be convinced. The other would be the work ethic. Training five days a week was not unusual, given the hours available, all day every day, except Sunday when the dojo closed at two PM (there were judoka inside training, it was just not open for anyone who was not inside when they brought the steel door down and locked themselves inside. It was a claustrophobic's nightmare of mightmares.
    ******

    But getting back to differences brought up by Charlie, it is indeed interesting subject matter. France: Why does the world/Olympic Judo team of the US go to France to train to get ready for these events? There is a reason, but what is it? Why doesn't the "American style" win any medals? Those who do train in France. Why? They use strength and as much of it as can be mustered. The Japanese seem to still use the tried and true style of having better technique. Through lots of uchikomi to even more randori, full resistent randori, but they also seem to practicea lot of give/take randori. It was that way from the early 1960s until the 1980s for me. In the smaller classes, they rule, but as in the 1980s (OK, since 1964), well, Yasuhiro Yamashita was competing as a young 6-dan. Rarely do judoka of that rank compete, as in general, the 6-dan is the reward for making 5-dan through competition (it's a generalization, not absolute in any way). While one can certainly continue to fight, it is usually in some type of master's class of the recently old.

    Korean judo, which is steadily becoming one of the premiere countries in the world in these same events. Many of those I've met along the way, either training in So. Korea because they were Korean, and the coaches, sensei, teachers, instructors are so keen on proper technique (as opposed to tokui-waza influenced Korean coaches) but does come close to the kind of judo seen in Western Europe and Asia (Mongolia and China; Russia as well). Interestingly enough, when speaking of just plain, old tokui-waza-trained judoka on these two continents, it does become a matter of strength against technique. And vice-versa (heheh). In general, lighter players use all the technique in the world while the stronger, bigger and slower fellows rely in superior strength. There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of it. It certainly didn't do anything to Antonius Geesink.

    My first teacher told me, when I was offered a chance to play, live, and eat judo at the Kodokan for one year (short of travel and clothing, otherwise everything was free) said that the Kodokan had long been the best place to learn judo. I didn't go, mainly because my family couldn't afford the travel expenses, and clother for the seasons. But certainly, why not train there? If anything, you probably have the greatest library about judo and judoka, past and present. That is the cradle of Judo, be it great or not so great. You can learn anything you want, or try to learn. Randori interests you? Take randori-only classes. Kata? Same thing (just think of the people I would have met, jeez, it makes me weepy).

    The Kodokan, from what I know from others who trained there, received everything you would want to learn. Traditional perhaps, but then what is "traditional judo?" As I know through experience and comparison, traditional judo is what a student gets in one of the local judo clubs. Lots of shiai, more randori, three tokui-waza, and transitional ground play as complete and as easy as is possible. I remember watching the best judoka in LA at that time competing at nearly every tournament I attended as a fighter. It did appear to be a slower randori, but slower in which way? It seemed to be a bit like sumo, really!! They played hard for the first three or four minutes of a ten minute match, then held whatever grip and position they were in, each waiting for the other to twitch. Those matches were exciting as hell. Today, it would be shido or chui for "passivity." Those type of matches are a thing of the past, it would seem with the exception of the local invitational, or one covered by the local chapter of the USJF or the local black belt association.

    But those were some really stimulating matches. No one giving a mm, each waiting until...wham, bam, thank you ma'am, it was over, just like that. Now if you are a waza junkie you may not have liked it, I'm not sure, but those were the matches I was watching after mine were over (meaning until I lost).

    Kosen Kodokan Judo. Is this another school of judo, or is it a school of judo which helps the students who haven't really been on the ground a whole lot, but is it still is Kodokan judo? I am sure of that. I hadn't been worked up about judo until the first time I saw a kosen demonstration (on tape). Nothing looked unusual, except that they were really good at it. The holds, the grips, escapes, all that was the same Kodokan Judo I knew, but they were just so good at it, and that was the difference. Specialization is the key, but you must have a good work ethic, something I've lacked for a long time.
    ********

    Well, that is the early stage of judo from my experience, and from those who gifted me with a much swifter history of judo, at least in the USA and Canada. I do own some books and a couple of tapes, as well.

    England, I believe, perhaps the UK as a whole, do some things differently, but they have had some strong players throughout history. The gaijin cradle could be said to be in London, at the Budokwai (they still keep the same wrong spelling, too). I play *jyudou* at the *Budoukwaii.* Please don't hurt me, but I think it probably is.

    The British seem to be, especially in the upper classes of judo players, to be consciously hard on themselves. It does seem to take a lot or work to get to the end, and some of the most knowlegeable are still at it one way or another or have died while still at it, be it on the mat or in the library.

    Some become great fighters and others great teachers. I don't think the statement, "those who can't, teach" is true in any manner. Some can do both, but it is rare. It is OK not to be, and that, perhaps, is the single, best reason for failing, in the USA in particular, but it can be true anywhere. Make the National Judo team for the Olympics, but then you are taken out early. The attitude that "I know I won because it was an honor just to make it that far." No it isn't an honor, you lost. Wake up! This is about winning, not completing the marathon just to complete it. Stay home and be as good as you can be, but lets get some players with winning attitudes.
    ******

    These approaches to judo are the following, for me anyway:

    Traditional Kodokan Judo: Taught at your favorite YMCA. Traditional judo is tokui-waza, competitive judo and always has been, at the very least the first twenty years. Shiai and Ran have always been the center of the "beginner." This was true a century or so before Kano's Kodokan Judo, it comes from a jujutsu ryu which called itself Judo (Jikishin ryu judo)" The pronunciation was most likely different, IE, "Jiu no michi or yawara no michi." There is reason for it, but there is no reason to stop all participation, or at least there is moving on to something else if you believe you need to do so. Judo has such a sound structure and foundation that it can be the building blocks for whatever it is that you seek. Because so much of judo can be practiced without a partner, it brings it to be a really good reason. Randori and shiai is what you do until one day one realizes that it isn't the whole of it but it takes time. The different approaches lead down the same path but with differing shortcuts. The reasons are as many as there are those who put on a judogi every day, once a week, whatever the schedule is.

    Non-traditional, to me, is training hard to learn most of the kata, or the kata of self-defense (there are three which can be said to teach self-defense), learning judo in order, without exception. There is a basis to it, and this is it: You first learn Nage-waza, then katame waza, third is atemi waza. Those are in the order of importance in judo. It is a personal choice, of course, but even in the 1958 version of Kodokan Judo Illustrated, it says if there is only one choice then it must be to practice nage waza (or tachiwaza more clearly). (OK, ukemi is first, along with mutual welfare and fitness, etc., etc.) But to learn all three in that order, one must learn the inferior kata first, nage no kata, katame no kata (note: "Inferior simply refers to the beginning kata"). After some twenty plus years or so, you begin with the superior kata, and you must learn the meaning of them because they have principles you all ready use, but don't know them yet.

    If you want to find the different approaches to learning judo, or any budo, one should experience the culture of a different country. It doesn't mean you will learn better judo, it just means you will find the lesser-beaten path than yours. The work ethic is probably the single most important approach to judo. But it varies widely. Your journey can begin by trying the local dojo of judo buddies, then, perhaps a few classes in a different cities. There are minor and major differences, and the instructor changes, too, but I found the approach by the New York City judoka I played judo with to be one first noticeable, the rei. Even that was different than most dojo I knew in LA. "Sensei ni rei" says the senpai. That was the first time I had heard even that, and the first time I had done a bow from seiza. Most dojo in Southern Cali. used a standing bow at the beginning and usually, a standing one at the end. My teacher was probably one of the worst offenders. While he was usually late due to work, he never instisted on rei at the beginning, but at the end,a standing bow.
    **********

    If Americans only looked in their backyards, they would see what built this country and applied it. It isn't necessarily anywhere else, but it could be on the dirt under your feet at this very moment. I think the different approach isn't what it is called, it is what is practiced. The dirt under your toes doesn't really matter, you can get the approach which fits you, but you must decide what it is for yourself, day in and day out. Or you can continue to put it off another day.

    Time flies. As I recall, from the age of forty until fifty took about three and one-half seconds. I am in awe of how much time and years have gone by since then. No one can afford to put it off until tomorrow (unless it is to wash the dishes).

    That isn't an approach, that is THE approach

    Tradition Vs. reality. Fahgettaboutit.


    Mark
    Last edited by MarkF; 4th December 2002 at 15:56.

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    Hello Charlie.

    Although you received an explicit reply from Mark, I would like to add my two cents. When we observe the behavior and style of the people fighting in international competitions we can come to the following conclusions:

    Japan: Very technical fighters using various techniques based on kuzushi provoked by tai sabaki.

    Korea: Limited number of tokui waza (but powerful), very strong on kumi kata.

    Russia: Unorthodox kumi kata, lots of leg pick ups (sambo influence)

    France, UK, western european countries: Technical fighters using more muscles than their japanese counterparts.

    Cuba: Great physical condition. (best women team).

    Brasil: Technically surprising (don't ask me why)

    U.S.: THe most succesful fighters seems to emulate japan's judo, the others looks like wrestlers.

    Canada: Being Canadian myself I find it difficult to judge but I'd say it's a mix of japanese and french judo (not as strong technically)

    Martin Durette

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    Charlie, although I come from the UK I'm not so sure that we do a 'European' style of Judo.

    The Judo that has influenced me can be broken down into 2 camps. The first was 'traditional' and quality of technique was emphasised, i.e. retain balance throughout, control, strive for Ippon. Press-ups were never done - "why do you want to push Uke away ?".

    The other influence was the 'Olympic' judo. I'd go to National Squad training and instead of learning advanced techniques, we'd all go on a 5-mile run. It was Koka judo - get a knockdown, try to win by getting less penalties than your opponent rather than more positive scores.

    Fortunately, the strength of the second influence is waning and the two areas are coming together so that, hopefully, we can have the best of both worlds.

    One of the major differences between the 2 forms was 'gripping'. Neil Adams has a book on it and I noticed a quote on the IJF website from the Japanese coach, Tatsuto Mochida, where he attributes some of the success of the Japanese men's team to their adoption of the western style of grip fighting.

    Here's the url for the whole story http://www.ijf.org/whatnew/latenews/wn-bb-807.htm I think you'll find it interesting.
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    Mark wrote:
    "It seemed to be a bit like sumo, really!! They played hard for the first three or four minutes of a ten minute match, then held whatever grip and position they were in, each waiting for the other to twitch. Those matches were exciting as hell. Today, it would be shido or chui for "passivity." "

    Then Pete wrote:
    "The other influence was the 'Olympic' judo. I'd go to National Squad training and instead of learning advanced techniques, we'd all go on a 5-mile run. It was Koka judo - get a knockdown, try to win by getting less penalties than your opponent rather than more positive scores. "

    In my time on e-budo, there have been lots of posts along the lines of "what is wrong with modern Judo". Usually they are bemoaning an emphasis on sport over self-defense.

    To me, what is "wrong" with modern Judo is encapsulated in the above two quotes. There has been a big shift in the emphasis in shiai since the sixties, and it's all to do with rules, and refereeing interpretations. Basically, it seems too easy to incur penalites, and too tempting to build up a stack of minor scores. Passivity warnings - don't get me started! NOTHING ruins the flow of a match more than the referee issuing passivity warnings. I'd LOVE to see the kind of matches Mark described above - and that's pretty much how I remember Olympic Judo on TV as a kid.

    Nowadays, the pressure to be seen to be always on the 'attack' generally results in lots of inconclusive footsie playing, with both players trying muscle/trip each other to the ground and hoping they can twist enough so the opponent lands first.

    When was the last time you saw a high-flying ippon seoi-nage in the Olympics, eh? (to all you clever-clogses whao are about to list them all - I'm being rhetorical. If Mark can have a rant, so can I!)

    If there is a regional difference, it's that the Japanese at least seem more prepared to go for ippon, even if it's more risky. Good for them for setting the standard - they invented it, after all.

    Cheers,

    Mike
    (armchair judoka extraordinaire)

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    Thanks for the replies, all, and I have to agree. Hanging question (or another thread) - does judo have too many rules? Does it have to, because so many players/coaches are trying to find a way to exploit what rules there are? Personally, I don't mind a little passivity myself. I don't play that way (or, if it looks like I am, it's hopefully because you can't see what I or my opponent is working on) but, hey. (Shrugs.) And, anyway, I can see why there needs to be new rules sometimes. Case in point: this movement against head-diving that came up last year. Good rule; a throw shouldn't be made that way.

    How, BTW, did "European" (or French) judo get to be the way it is? Anyone point me to some good articles of, say, the Kodokan criticizing the French approach?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  8. #8
    MarkF Guest

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    ...koka judo.
    That's what the pre-war judoka call it.

    Charlie,
    I knew what you meant, but seriously, and with no rant, the difference isn't really great enough to put in real terms as opposed to the more esoteric, and judo hasn't had much of that for a long, long time.

    The old saying still fits. The complaints are not about judo, not even the older judoka say that, the complaint is in the rules which govern whatever talent is on the mat at that time.

    Hank Ogawa, 85+ years said, while watching the Canadian Nationals for the 2000 Olympics, "If I were twenty years younger I could beat those guys." He then turned the channel to watch Tiger Woods. That doesn't help. There is too much pulling and pushing, so much by the rules committees that even the most talented (Nick Gill) can't really show what they have.

    If you saw Ryoko Miura (Yawara Chan) in her gold medal match at Sydney, here seoinage to seoiotoshi was nothing more than uke literally rolling off here back while Ryoko had beant her body to lock like an off ramp at the freeway, and just happened to roll on her (uke's) back, while the shinban ruled waza-ari, the corner judge where the throw happened waved off the waza-ari and ruled an Ippon. In my day, that wouldn't have scored at all, except perhaps the system used informally by the judges to keep score of who had better form in their attempts in case of a draw in their heads, which is what the point scoring today is based upon. Problem, you can't take it back to your head and be silent as it isn't there anymore, it is on a public monitor/scoring clock.

    But basic Kodokan Judo, technique by many, has only improved. It isn't the fault of the player nor is it, in any way, the fault of judo. Players do what they can under the circumstances, and those I know just do not settle for koka wins, they will risk their leads and go for the Ippon. Some of the best nage waza and holddowns/sumissions was seen in Sydney, but most folks want to complain about rules. Don't go. Those shiai in my area rarely use that system due to time and insurance constraints, therefore the matches are single elimination and ippon and waza-ari (a technique has happened!) is the way. The winner has no time to rest, the next is called off while the loser walks off the mat. Decisions, if there are enough people to judge, are made at times, but most who try to kick butt and don't, are scored draws.

    No one anywhere has to follow any rule of any organization, it is voluntary, be the ruling body the NGB of the IJF or the Kodokan, it just isn't a fact of life, it is what you and your dojo wish to make it. The local body for the USJF or USJI don't even have to follow those rules. It is like the blue dogi. Which local tourament anywhere insists on that? Close to none, I'd say.

    Now that was 'nuff said.


    Mark

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    Hank Ogawa, 85+ years said, while watching the Canadian Nationals for the 2000 Olympics, "If I were twenty years younger I could beat those guys." He then turned the channel to watch Tiger Woods. That doesn't help. There is too much pulling and pushing, so much by the rules committees that even the most talented (Nick Gill) can't really show what they have.
    Quite honestly Mark I don't really believe the older judokas were better than the modern international judokas. The best ones adapt themselves to the existing rules and use them to their advantage. Like any other sports there has been an improvement regarding the training methods.

    Martin Durette

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    I agree, Martin, I guess it didn't come out that way, though.

    As Jigoro Kano said at his visit to the Budokwai, while watching a performance of the Ju no Kata and saw an error: "That is a modification of the Ju no Kata." Not wrong, a modification. It is up to the person to adapt to whatever the situation happens to be. It is that way in a self-defense situation, you adapt to your surroundings.

    Apart from that, we all have that first snap-shot of judo in our heads, and it becomes difficult not feel a bit jaded sometimes. Still, one should never give up that picture.


    Mark

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