Kata

[Paihequan]

Without sounding controversial, I'd like propose the question "Are Kata necesssary?" to members. What are the values derived from Kata and what are the disadvantages?

To start the ball rolling:

Forms or Kata are not important at all! Forms can disappear, they can die slowly or quickly like flesh on a decaying body until all that is left is the skeleton. It does not matter. The essence, the inner-features of the art must remain intact.What "Secrets" do the Kata contain that can not be found within technique or a series of technique???

The "Kata Secrets" thing is an amusing bandwagon that a great many have hitched a ride on without fully understnading just where the "Wagon" is headed or for that matter, where its been!

Many talk of these secrets but few can show them or write of them in a convincing manner (I await someone doing just that!).

Keep in mind that application (i.e. essence) came before kata and that kata is made up of application!!! Its very simple. Those who claim to be truly traditional should be teaching in English only, not wearing uniforms or belts, not advertising, not posting on forums and keeping the applications to themselves and a few trusted students.

I await someone's expose on the "Secrets" Kata contain that cannot be found in application of individual technique!!! Kata are great tools to an end but they are not the "be all and end all". Rather they originally served as a modest vehicle via which the arts could be transmitted in a complete manner. They were and are however, made up of fighting applications and it is these upon which the kata rests not the pattern now known as kata. Without the creation of these individual fighting applications then kata would not exist so again I state it is these applications that form to make thge kata that are important and not the whole kata itself. Look at many "traditional" (which are actually modern in time standards) kata of karatedo and one will see endless repitition of movements which by and large act as fillers to the actual applications. It is the "Essence' the original thought, concept, principle that is the real secret of kata, not the kata or the techniques they contain!!!

Without the essence no technique or series of techniques exist and without these no kata is formed.

There really are no techniques in Karate nor should their be. Any move which embodies the essence of the art becomes a kata in the original sense.

[Victor]

Ron,

I beg to differ with you.

Kata contain a great secret, not found in the indivdiual technique. Their study and practice are a tool to develop the energy that is expressed in the component techniques.

Now secret is a troubling word to many, but it really is quite simple.

A secret is something many haven't been shown, or has been deliberately hidden. Such as a techique in a kata which can kill but when training beginners is explained elsewise to divert their minds.

Or secrets are things that I know but don't choose to share with others, and they may or may not discover them either.

The greatest secret, one very often overlooked, it that of time. A great deal is required for most progress, and if one dosn't discover that secret, the rest becomes meaningless as they move on leaving the training behind.

The essence of the way I've been tuaght the Okinawan arts, and the Chinese arts, are the major use of the tool represented by the name kata (or other labels).

The essence of which doesn't change, it just may lie dormant for decades, or be neglected, or forgot, but resides there still.

It's all a matter of perspective. And where kata is the soul of Okinawa, a far different secret, is there is much more too.

Pleasantly,

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

Heck, tomorrow morning I'll be holding my normal Tai Chi class outside. Here it will be far below freezing the ground is snow covered, but Tai Chi, the quintessence of kata and energy, will flow. You should drop on by and join us. Perhaps my Crane technique could play with your Crane technique on ice and the snow too<GRIN>

[Kevin73]

I have seen this argument (debate) many times before and it always seems to come down to one important fact. How did you first learn kata? If you learn from someone who just has you practice over and over and over with no hands one things or pulling the moves out of the kata and playing around with them other than to JUST block/punch than I would agree that they are not good and you would be better trained learning hands on things.

BUT!!! If you learn kata and think of them as a guideline for strategy or think "what ifs" with the moves you can come up with a lot of different applications and then the kata becomes a reminder that sparks your memory of what lessons can be learned from it.

For example: Probably one of the first things many students learn is retracting your hand to the hip and performing a middle block. That's pretty basic. Now if you think differently about it and have a hand grabbing your opponent and you are pulling that to your hip and using the middle block to strike above the opponents elbow you can use the move to perform a straight armbar takedown (PPCT).

In the above scenario that is considered a "secret technique". I realize you may be thinking, "Well, everyone knows that it's not a secret". That's true now that you've had training and with the advent of such free sharing , many people know that. But, if you had no training you wouldn't know that, or when it was first taught students wouldn't have known that either. I think the word "secret" is misused alot to market things. Think of it more as "hidden" it's there in plain sight but you have to look deeper to find it.

[kusanku]

Hehehehehehehehehehehehehe.Phlap.

[Hank Irwin]

Ron, Ron, Ron. This is like a yo-yo, up and down. Are these the principles to teach to students? Kata is garbage is basically what you are saying. With the so called level of experience you have in Okinawan Crane Fist and Karate, how can you say that? Kata IS the essence of Okinawan karate. It verifies the ancient methods validity. This is a junk thread and should be dropped. Nonsense. All it will cause is desention in this sector of the forum and petty squabbling... Again! And Ron, if you can't find something constructive to be objective about, you should stay out of the forum. All you do is piss a lot people off, and that is dangerous my friend.

[kenshorin]

Originally posted by Hank Irwin
All it will cause is desention in this sector of the forum and petty squabbling... Again!

Thanks. This thread needed that statement.

If you want to see what people have said in the past about why kata is necessary, do a search for kata on any thread here on e-budo. This topic is not a new one. And if your heart is so set in stone about how useless kata is, then it will be just that for you my friend. Absolutely useless. And no manner of argument will change your mind.

I will agree that "kata secrets" don't exist however. They aren't secret at all. They're sitting there, waiting for you to come along and grasp them. But if you don't want em, thats your choice. You don't need them. Do whatever you want. Far be it for me to attempt to change your mind.

Soke Goninan,

While I admit that most members on E-Budo are not PhDs they also are not idiots either, well a few are idiots anyway.

So while reading your post I can't help but wonder what is going on in you brain when you make these kinds of statements:

Originally posted by Paihequan
Without sounding controversial.......Forms or Kata are not important at all! .........The "Kata Secrets" thing is an amusing bandwagon that a great many have hitched a ride.................Many talk of these secrets but few can show them or write of them in a convincing manner (I await someone doing just that!). (No statements like these are not "contraversial" at all..... Your including yourself in that last statement I hope)

Those who claim to be truly traditional should be teaching in English only, not wearing uniforms or belts, not advertising, not posting on forums and keeping the applications to themselves and a few trusted students. (Again, Your including yourself in that last statement I hope since I seem to recall you wearing your KungFu pajamas on your website and throwing out lots of foreign words too)

I await someone's expose on the "Secrets" Kata contain that cannot be found in application of individual technique!!! Kata are great tools to an end but they are not the "be all and end all". Rather they originally served as a modest vehicle via which the arts could be transmitted in a complete manner.

(Uh......didn't you just contradict yourself? If they are a "complete manner" then they are just that COMPLETE)

Look at many "traditional" (which are actually modern in time standards) kata of karatedo and one will see endless repitition of movements which by and large act as fillers to the actual applications.

(That statement right there just reinforces what I already knew about you...........you know very little about kata)


There really are no techniques in Karate nor should their be.

(Again, that statement right there just reinforces what I already knew about you...........you know very little about kata)

[Tatsu]

Originally posted by Paihequan
Forms or Kata are not important at all! Forms can disappear, they can die slowly or quickly like flesh on a decaying body until all that is left is the skeleton. It does not matter. The essence, the inner-features of the art must remain intact.What "Secrets" do the Kata contain that can not be found within technique or a series of technique???

Are you asking a question? It sure doesn't seem like you have a clue. I dunno. You're a trip. OK, you are right kata doesn't matter. Kumite doesn't matter. Hojo undo is a waste of time. The traditional way of Okinawan training and the modern methods are fruitless. For real knowledge listen only to your viewpoint, and for self-protection buy a gun and get a permit. Oh I'm sorry, you're in Australia and that's not allowed. Well take Krav Maga or carry a knife or something. You got all the answers. Why train? Why cause any static?

The "Kata Secrets" thing is an amusing bandwagon that a great many have hitched a ride on without fully understnading just where the "Wagon" is headed or for that matter, where its been!
Many talk of these secrets but few can show them or write of them in a convincing manner (I await someone doing just that!).
Keep in mind that application (i.e. essence) came before kata and that kata is made up of application!!! Its very simple. Those who claim to be truly traditional should be teaching in English only, not wearing uniforms or belts, not advertising, not posting on forums and keeping the applications to themselves and a few trusted students.

You want answers, huh? I'm sorry no one will explain these "secrets" to you. I have a feeling you'll never get any answers. Did you know that the word "secret" is a derivative of the word "sacred"? That might explain things in your case.
You just like to see your junk on the net, huh? Are you alright man? You're not an attention hound, are you? Yes, there are no secret things ever. No enigmas and no real truth. We have all of reality figured out and MAs is no exception. The art of "no way" is the only way. Didn't someone named Bruce LEE say that? Very original. Forms are silly dances, not made to transfer martial knowledge. Maybe you could rename your art Jeet Kune Do, too!

Whatever language you teach Okinawan and other TMAs in doesn't matter. Only the language of proof, empiricism and logic matter. Emotion does have some influence too. Most of all effectiveness speaks volumes when it comes to things "martial" in nature. Also, if you decide to teach with a 3-piece suit on that is up to you. I have a feeling that some folks could wear anything they wanted and still not be able to fight or teach the MAs.

Look at many "traditional" (which are actually modern in time standards) kata of karatedo and one will see endless repitition of movements which by and large act as fillers to the actual applications. It is the "Essence' the original thought, concept, principle that is the real secret of kata, not the kata or the techniques they contain!!!

Each kata technique has a purpose. Each movement is a defensive or offensive technique. Some moves counter and others initiate. Each has multiple meanings. One technique has a myriad of interpretations. A "reminder" of some options if you will. How you eventually interpret these techs is based on your own knowledge of confrontation and intention.This is based on the knowledge passed on to you and how you interpret it and teach it. You can rarely focus on something you have little or no experience with. So, if you have a limited perspective or limited catalog of options, then repetition is seen. Forget about ambidexterity training, "maai", rhythm, proprioception, proper biomechanics and ambulation, positioning, power distribtution, qigong and muscle memory. That's a short list of the benefits of kata training. I don't know exactly what you are trying to imply by indicting "traditional" kata training. Yes, many forms are "modern" but interpreted correctly still have merit in passing on a systems ideals and methodologies. I know you're not talking about the people on the Ryukyuan forum anyway. You have not one inkling as to how we train and what we know.

Without the essence no technique or series of techniques exist and without these no kata is formed.

If your "essence" wreaks of bovine scat, then the resulting aroma will be easy to detect. Please, tell me what THIS essence is. ILL-uminate us all please.

Speaking of decay, PLASTIC is the result of petroleum by-products which are the result of "death" and "decay" as you stated in your opening silliness. Get real, bro.

[CEB]

The kata is the ryu.

[tetsu]

If I give up kata, can I get some of those great pajamas?

Tetsu Johan

[Paihequan]

Your missing the point, I was/am playing Devil's Advocate in an attempt to start some meanignful discussion. The views posted are actually not mine but were said to me by Sifu Lio Chin Long of the Paihequan Wuyangkuang of Taiwan. I was simply interested to see what others had to say of these views.

Robert and Hank, I believe the rules of this board state one should be respectful. Your posts fail you on that account.

Now if we can stop "slinging off" at each other, I feel some very good points have been rauised durinmg this discussion.

I for one value "Kata" (Taolu) to a high degree and belkeive in searching for the essence of each form. We only use eight forms:

* Yong Chun Kuen
* Pah Puh Lien
* Ba Bu Lien Er Lu
* Hua Pa Pu (Ba Bu Lien Sam Lu)
* Sai Hequan
* Ershibada
* Wohng Shan Hequan

Each of these forms have a natural progression in principles towards the next form.

Lets try to keep the discussion on track and forget about the insults and personality clashes.

Regards to all

Originally posted by Paihequan
Your missing the point, I was/am playing Devil's Advocate in an attempt to start some meanignful discussion. The views posted are actually not mine but were said to me by Sifu Lio Chin Long of the Paihequan Wuyangkuang of Taiwan. I was simply interested to see what others had to say of these views.

Now Soke is trying to back peddle.

Originally posted by Paihequan
Robert and Hank, I believe the rules of this board state one should be respectful. Your posts fail you on that account.

Looks like I better put a call through to Wisconsin and order some more cheese to go with that whine of yours Ron.

Originally posted by Paihequan
Now if we can stop "slinging off" at each other, I feel some very good points have been rauised durinmg this discussion.

What does “rauised durinmg” mean?

Originally posted by Paihequan
Lets try to keep the discussion on track and forget about the insults and personality clashes.

Soke Ron,

If you want to play lumberjack you had better learn how to hold up your end of the log first.

[Paihequan]

Robert, I was wondering when you would raise your head and your personalized agendas again. It seems that you have to write and attempt to belittle others in order to make you feel good about yourself. You have to use insulting terms, sarcastic comments to try and justify yourself. Such is the actions of an internally insecure person. I truly feel sad for you.

If you don't like me or that which I post, then simply ignore my posts. It's really that simple.

Of course if you did this you would not be able to make yourself look superior to others. I don't know you. Your probably a really nice bloke but one has to wonder what tragedies in life have left you so sad, insecure and bitter towards those who don't fit your narrow-minded view of life.

I truly feel sad for you.

I will not respond to your childish and petty attempts at justifying yourself again. It is simply beneath me to do so and only serves to create disharmony on this board. You are simply not worth it.

If you feel you have something genuine to contribute towards the actual discussion taking place other than your own personal and petty agendas then I bid you welcome ... otherwise please desist from posting off the track comments which are obviously politically motivated at best. Please stop lowering yourself.

[Paihequan]

Please excuse my comments to Robert. Lets return to the subject of discussion.

It has been interesting to see the reactions to the views of Lio Chin Long. Some of you have respectfully begged to differ and explained your views. Others have simply gone on to make personalized attacks.

It seems that the subject for and against Kata (or Taolu) is an emotive subject which shows that many of you feel greatly for your respective arts and the forms they contain. Nothing wrong with this admirable trait.

To be honest one of the first things I seek from forms is to try to comprhend each form's lesson or essence. I look to the applications first then the actual form in it's entire being.

I'd be interested in hearing of how some of you approach the concept of forms within your own respective styles.

Originally posted by Paihequan
Robert, I was wondering when you would raise your head and your personalized agendas again. It seems that you have to write and attempt to belittle others in order to make you feel good about yourself. You have to use insulting terms, sarcastic comments to try and justify yourself. Such is the actions of an internally insecure person. I truly feel sad for you.

I have no “agenda” against you……I merely post my opinions on your posts. I do have an agenda against “Trolls” though. As for justifying myself……I have no need to justify myself for the like of you Soke

Originally posted by Paihequan
If you don't like me or that which I post, then simply ignore my posts. It's really that simple.

You would love that since I expose some of the BS you seem to love to post.

Originally posted by Paihequan
Of course if you did this you would not be able to make yourself look superior to others.

Not my intention at all. I just don’t like BS artists, fakes, and liars that post crap.

Originally posted by Paihequan
I don't know you. Your probably a really nice bloke but one has to wonder what tragedies in life have left you so sad, insecure and bitter towards those who don't fit your narrow-minded view of life.

When you get a license to practice Psychology then you can analyze me.

Originally posted by Paihequan
I will not respond to your childish and petty attempts at justifying yourself again. It is simply beneath me to do so and only serves to create disharmony on this board. You are simply not worth it.

You keep promising that but never keep your word……….why?