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Thread: does it really work

  1. #1
    hakuda Guest

    Default does it really work

    Ever noticed how we are taught to "go with the technique"? In most cases it's to avoid injury and to allow the tori to learn the dynamics of the body upon application of the technique, but you've got to wonder if it helps or hinders our training.

    I have to admit though, I have wondered if someone caught off guard by a technique, someone not familiar with the style being used, would react in the perscribed manner in which we are accustomed to. Or would we be in for a rude awakening. I know it comes down to experience, skill, and how you have trained, but just a thought. I have used what I practice in an actual situation and it worked quickly and rather well. We train to be able to adapt our technique to the opponent and attack, but you have to admit sometimes your training partner may be too cooperative. If you're on a basic level that's fine, but if your advanced let them resist and have fun.

    I just had this thought pop up while watching some hardly believable fight scene on the boobtube.

  2. #2
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    I have often wondered that too (will it work in a real situation). During training, I have had some ukes fall rather easily for me when doing techniques, others didn't fall like I would have liked them too. As time goes on, I have disovered that uke (or even a real attacker) has to be committed the whole way through. I have noticed the more committed the attacker is in trying to punch, stab or kick, the more effective the techniques can be. Just my 2 bits worth.
    Sincerely,

    Eric Joyce
    Otake Han Doshin Ryu Jujutsu

  3. #3
    Benjamin Peters Guest

    Default

    Gentlemen,

    Confidence in technique success is an issue I think all martial artists go through in their life as a student.

    Not to take anything away from traditional class room training, but if we look at (say) some sport oriented forms (Ok OK, they have draw backs), we can see how they operate under resistive pressure. We can then see more clearly how expediency in technique can be achieved. For instance a boxer: even though the sport form is limited in comparison, its application is especially noted amongst martial artists for its deadly efficiency. Same could be said for other sport forms.

    What works for your teacher may not work for you. What works in the dojo may not work for you on the street.

    I'm sure if you gather a friends who are like minded and break away from the square of the dojo, you'll be able to see that you can resist some techniques and sometimes (under pressure or whatever), some techniques are successful and some not so successful.

    The trick is to keep training and find the secrets to what you are learning so that all that knowledge can be applied. Experimenting isn't a crime - it can only help your training for real life, as can (as you say) "Going with it". That's how they did it in the old days ha, walking around and looking for opportunities to learn?

  4. #4

    Default

    Is a resisting Uke the same as a resisting 'real life' opponent?

    A lot of techniques require atemi or the application of a lock to set up. I often have trouble applying these to resisting partners, but mainly (I feel) because I am concerned about injuring my opponent. Likewise, I'm a very compliant uke on some techs - because I know I risk injury if I resist too much, especially if I don't know my opponent all that well.

    If the initial atemi was landed with full force or the lock was cranked on as hard as possible, I'm fairly sure you could create openings for the rest of the tech. to work a lot of the time - but your uke wouldn't thank you for it.

    The times when it doesn't work, you have to be prepared to move into something else. That's where I think the real value of randori (or competition) comes in - teaching you how to adapt, to improvise, to think a few steps ahead of your opponent. Oh yeah, and it teaches applied kuzushi and maai as well.

    Cheers,

    Mike

  5. #5
    Dan Harden Guest

    Default

    Most everything you know will work.
    Most everything you know won't work.
    What?

    Defending yourself aganst a drunk may surprise you for what will work
    Defendng yourself against me may surprise you for what won't.
    And life happens somewhere in between.
    you train for the unpredictably worst
    The rest is a gift.
    At some point you need to fight fighters. You won't learn that in most dojo

    Cheers
    Dan

  6. #6
    hakuda Guest

    Default

    I have no doubt in my technique, I just posed the question because I've noticed others in our dojo struggling. I offered my help as best I could for their skill level. In my line of work unfortunately I get more oppurtunity to use what I have learned. That happened on Thursday with a "mean" drunk. Everything worked out fine with noone being injured. That seems to be a bigger question. Does humanity interfere with application of technique? Does a situation arise that makes you bring it down a notch, almost to the point of ineffectivness, because of a feeling of humanity or pity? I guess just a different light on my question.

  7. #7
    Benjamin Peters Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by hakuda
    I have no doubt in my technique, I just posed the question because I've noticed others in our dojo struggling. I offered my help as best I could for their skill level.
    I think you've hit the nail on the head by saying that - some people need the encourangement to be able to go through the motions (fall with the technique) in order that they are able to truly recognize what is it about techniques that makes them effective. It's not until they are capable of understanding can they really evaluate their technique in more fluid circumstances. Probably more proactive that people fall initially - otherwise you'll have one trying to work the technique and the other resisiting. That would just look silly

  8. #8
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    Default

    Hi all

    I think what you will find is if the situation does occur that it will look absolutely nothing like real martial arts.

    I work in security doing a lot of bar and club work.
    The main factor we come across is that the opponent is usually drunk and in many cases has none or little martial arts training. This gives them lot of bravery which they normally wouldnt have.

    When thrown to the ground most people tend to try and tuck up into a ball, protecting themselves. Adrenalin when that kicks in also gives them a hidden strength and also blocks out the pain. I have seen guys trading punches to the face and not move an inch, but the next day i bet they can hardly get out of bed. Do that without alcohol and adrenalin and they would have been down and out with the first blow

    I have also found that when we have had to remove someone and we wish them arrested, it is not always that easy to apply a restraint. Basicaly i just drop my body weight on them which lossens them up and allows me to quickly (and it has to be quick) to grab an arm and lock it. It takes a few seconds before they realise that they are going nowhere and then they tend to relax a little and stop fighting. pressing the thumb into a pressure point below the ear tends to soften them up also.

    I doubt any highly skilled martial artist who has fought can actually say they fought perfectly in there style. I would say that it gives you an edge on that person, and if you do a striking art you will be more used to being hit than they are, a grappling at will give you the edge if it goes to the ground.

    My advise - keep well away from fighting, when your adrenalin level drops you soon relaise what a situation you could have got into.
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

  9. #9
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    Dont be fooled, if you dont fight, you dont know how to fight. I wouldn't worry so much about your opponent in the street, the techniques work. The problem is that most traditional martial artists do not have the ability to apply the techniques. If you receive your rank (if your school uses rank) by demonstrating a certain number of techniques for your level - this only means you can demonstrate - it doesnt mean you can apply them. You can never reproduce a real fight in training but you can get very close. You need to do unrehearsed self defense. Your "uke" attacks you any way they want, and then if he (or she) gets the chance, resists everything you try to do. If you throw him down and dont make him submit, he just gets back up and begins to beat you. (I would suggest some jujitsu gloves for this). Only through these kinds of training exercises will you be able to know at about a 90% level you can apply your technique. Do not let yourself get into the trap of using phrases like "this technique is so deadly I cant use it in training", or "this is where I would hit them - so this is what would happen on the street", or "I cant do the street version". Here is the truth - if you cant do it in class...you cant do it. It is a simple concept, but so few are willing to accept it.
    Russ St. Hilaire
    Kobukai Jujutsu

  10. #10
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    Nice one Russ

    I agree with you.

    too often people recieve a grade/rank and think thats proof they are a fighter.

    I have met lots of black belts who have the bottle to fight anyone on the mat with rules and regulations.

    But put them in the street where they are going to get a real kicking many will back off

    the best thing to do is back off if your unsure - walk away if you can, a Braver man walks away in my book
    Paul Richardson - Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Lincoln Dojo

  11. #11
    shadow42 Guest

    Default Re: does it really work

    Originally posted by hakuda
    Ever noticed how we are taught to "go with the technique"? In most cases it's to avoid injury and to allow the tori to learn the dynamics of the body upon application of the technique, but you've got to wonder if it helps or hinders our training.

    I have to admit though, I have wondered if someone caught off guard by a technique, someone not familiar with the style being used, would react in the perscribed manner in which we are accustomed to. Or would we be in for a rude awakening. I know it comes down to experience, skill, and how you have trained, but just a thought. I have used what I practice in an actual situation and it worked quickly and rather well. We train to be able to adapt our technique to the opponent and attack, but you have to admit sometimes your training partner may be too cooperative. If you're on a basic level that's fine, but if your advanced let them resist and have fun.

    I just had this thought pop up while watching some hardly believable fight scene on the boobtube.
    All I have to say about this really is, wristlock throws, very often dont result in any actual throwing, but a lot of actual screaming, after their wrist is broken and they are still standing there looking at it bending in most unnatural ways. When people who dont know to go with the technique, dont go with the technique, bad things can happen to them. But, depending on the severity of the situation, it can be a good thing for you.

  12. #12
    L-Fitzgerald Guest

    Default Wrist throw does work

    About 17 years ago while working as a river guide another worker had been constantly goofing around with me. While he was standing on a small flat bed trailer I managed to grasp his hand and set up for a wrist throw. He laughed and dare me to try.... the next move found him spinning like a one-bladed propeller off the trailer to the ground.... his screams were heard for a half-mile on the river.... it worked, and worked very well... since an unruly bunch of drunks landing at the site saw what happened, starting picking up their empty beer cans and garbage and placed it in nearby trash cans...

    L Fitzgerald

  13. #13
    shadow42 Guest

    Default

    Definitely a good litter deterent....
    "You carry it in, you carry it out, or else the EMT's will be carryin YOU out!"

  14. #14
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    Default

    This is an old discussion that won't be resolved by discussion.

    The effectiveness of the techniques that you are taught is dependant on how you train, how your instructor trained and the technique itself. There are many techniques taught in various styles of Jujutsu that are extremely difficult to apply in this day and age, however I have seen (and performed myself) some techniques in actual fights that I never expected to work, but worked brilliantly.

    As many of the guys will tell you, experience is what counts when it comes to fighting. I don't condone going out and getting in fights to gain experience, and I don't expect you to try the latest technique from the dojo next time you get attacked or have to restrain someone.

    The best thing is to make training as realistic as possible, train with people that are not from your dojo, so that you know their reaction is genuine. But most of all, practice. Practice until everything becomes second nature.

    Feel the way your opponent moves and reacts and gauge what will work and what won't in the instant you come together. Changing techniques are important, if something isn't working, have something to change to, then change again if need be.

    Having good unbalancing is the key to being able to change techniques, but having a broad range of techniques that you know well enables you to find something that works quickly. Of course reaching this level takes a long time.

    Learning CQC will give you fighting skills much more quickly than learning Jujutsu. But to me the difference between CQC and Jujutsu is like the difference between a childs drawing and a work of art, both are effective at relaying a message. One is crude but quick and easy to do by almost anyone, the other takes considerable time and skill and many people cannot do it. But which would you prefer to look at?

    But as always there's a catch. Beware of forgeries, beware of painters that over-value their work, beware of becoming engrosed in one style when another may suit you better and finally, don't be afraid to learn more than one style.

    Regards
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  15. #15
    kusanku Guest

    Default

    Key to effective techniques is to learn first, the foundational priciples, ukemi, unbalancing,tai sabaki, and so forth, then apply these to mastery of the waza, then work the waza with as many different types partners as you can.

    Then when you are in a situation, don't think about technique, just respond to protect yourself. Getting out of the way, get arms up to intercept, evade, unbalance,and apply. Forget about good technique, you aren't in the dojo.

    Wristlocks work well when your wrist is grabbed, lapel is grabbed, or shoulder or throat is grabbed. Armbars and locks work well when you already have a wrist or hand or when you parry a punch or strike, unbalance and apply with as someone mentioned, weight dropped or raised.

    Throws work dandy if you know them well, sweeps and reaps especially so.

    Kick a puncher, grab the leg of a kicker, and push him back and away,or take him down,lock a grabber or full body grappler, and strike or punch a locker( atemi).Generally speaking.

    Stay simple and don't get fancy.Fancy gets you kilt.

    What makes for effectiveness for real?Well, hope you never have to find out, but some of you sound like you already have.

    A real fight is a little piece of Hell, or a big piece, depending.It can happen very sudenly allowing you no time to prepare and little to react.Atemi is important as you can strike even as you are off balanced, tackled or pushed/pulled/hit.Not much time to do anything else. but if you can stun the attacker back as he does it to you, worst case, it can buy you time to move.Learn to keep your feet if at all possible.Try to stay away from the ground.

    If you wind up down, try geting back up fast.Ground grappling is okay with one opponent if you are good, but boots to the head and ribs will kill you if more than one.Usually.

    Figure on attacker probably being armed and respond to protect yourself, ie don't leave any openings if you can help it.

    Figuring they are unamrmed can get you killed even if they are.Unarmed can be very dangerous.

    The kata of various jujutsu ryu are often designed, in addition to specific responses, to teach general principles of respons to many types of attack. Not a news flash I am sure.

    The complete techniques, usually contain or shopuld contain, caveat,all needed elements of self protection against attack, Learning them and internalizing them such that in a real attack you remain as safe as possible by human effort at least,gives you the best chance of survival.learn to control distance if you have the chance but often you won't.

    Awareness, anticipation, and yes,wisdom, are key elements as well, though by no means the only ones.

    There is also the possibillity of supernatural assistance,which starts with those human faculties that in modern life we do not develop, and goes much further than them- ie thru prayer, meditation and living in harmony with the great principles which remain the same down the ages and across cultures.

    And then there are the technical principles, including those learned through much training and experience..

    Hope that is of help.

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