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Thread: Systema - Russian "aiki"

  1. #1
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

    Default Talk About Tanking...

    We are asked to try Systema before we pass judgement. I am sure there are some good things there. But none of that overrides this kind of shenanigans. Get it quick before this video disappears, too:

    http://hamiltonsystema.bserv.com/mikhailsergei.mpg

    As a professional in tactical law enforcement, I ask a very serious question in earnest to James Williams and Ken Good; as professionals involved in the training of individuals whose lives may be saved, or lost, by what you teach, how can you in good conscience support this kind of thing? What are we missing? I do not believe that the "try it and you will see" is a valid rebuttal any more...do I have to call Miss Cleo and see if her predictions are correct before I can assess whether what quacks like a duck is, in fact a duck?

    What gives, guys?

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    It may be real . . . or it may just be one more thing to be marketed, by full-time martial arts marketers.
    Tom Douglas

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    It looks very interesting. I'd like to see it in person. When's the next Sytema seminar?

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    I'm not sure what it is I'm supposed to be getting from that video.

    It looks like non-pressure oriented rolling practice. Without context I'm not prepared to "dis" it... because I don't know what it was for.

    I didn't see any combative techniques, nor did I see the chubby guy attempting to knock down the other guy. I only saw the other guy rolling in response to soft directional cues from the chubby guy.

    So what bothered you about it, exactly?

    Aric keith

  5. #5
    INFINOO Guest

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    Learning to roll like that is a "very" usefull combative skill in my book. The applications are infinite, besides it looks fun.

    Regards

    Gregory Rogalsky
    Rogalsky Combatives International
    Calgary Alberta Canada

  6. #6
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    I guess I just prefer reality. Some rationalize the non contact manipulation stuff with strained analogies to highly tangential aspects of bio-mechanics and psycho-physiology and human performance. In my book that is psychobabble.

    Personally I would avoid any practice that conditioned me to suggestion on the part of another. Cooperative practice is one thing, this is entirely another.

    There was a Chinese martial arts group that did something very similar to this stuff. I don't mean Rich Mooney, who actually shows this stuff as valid knife defense, but the group his teacher was associated with. The common criticism of this teacher was that a) he could only do this with his own students, and even then, with specially chosen students who were more "sensitive" than others and had spent a decent amount of time with him and b) those students sometimes started to tank at the mere suggestion of movement and intent from the teacher, i.e. they had become hyper-susceptible to the teachers cues. Someone here on E-budo once wrote that in his aikido class, I think it was, the teacher did some no touch, hand in front of the face you rear back for the expected ukemi and wham, fall without being touched. He said that he got to the point where he sometimes fell over with a wave of the teacher's hand without wanting to because he had been so conditioned to it from practicing this way.

    There is no martial integrity for the teacher there, and none in the students training.

    I think there is a definite concern with the mental attitude this kind of training engenders. I truly see no valid martial application to this at all. You want to practice rolling different directions on different physical cues? Do it with someone attacking you realistically, trying to control your movement and direction, perhaps armed, and in some manner that at least looks something like real violence.

    If you are concerned with what might save your ass tomorrow, and making that better and smoother and more instinctive, you should waste precious little training time on games like this. My comments to James and Ken are predicated on the fact that they teach law enforcement, they have publically endorsed Systema as the best thing they have seen for CQB appllcations, and they strongly advise getting video to get a look at Systema. So far the video I have seen only casts Systema in poorer and poorer light, from my admittedly biased perspective. The last time I was critical of some truly ridiculous handgun disarms shown on video from one of the Systema websites, and posted a link (literally a crescent kick knocking the gun out of the hand and catching the weapon on the way down...which was better than the drop on your back and scissors the gun out of the guy's hand with your feet...) the video disappeared from the website. I have to question why anyone would even put it up in the first place.

    I still plan on checking Systema out, maybe there is something in there that all this circus stuff is obscuring, or even intentionally drawing us away from (how's that for psychological manipulation). I will go in with a large bias against it, though, and will have to be more than convinced. I make no apologies for that bias, because I honestly feel it has kept me practicing things which have saved me from serious injury at the hands of others on several occasions, and might again tomorrow.

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    Meynard,
    You really should work out with Vlad if you get a chance.
    Very impressive, and I think you would get alot from it.

    John

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    There are other branches of the "Russian Martial Art" that do not rely on the prestidigitation of the "Master" and the hypersuggestibility of the students. Scott Sonnon's presentation of Retskuniyh's system and Kadochnikov's system are both available here in the U.S. Mr. Sonnon in particular presents interesting and effective conditioning practices and movement training that he can effectively demonstrate without recourse to mystification.

    I don't see any realistic training value in the video clip demonstration by Ryabko here. If we're talking about training rolling escapes or taking falls on a hard floor, there are better ways to train it. If we're talking about training the student's ability to sense and evade, there are more thorough ways to train that in response to more realistic "attacks" than are presented in the clip.

    To me, the video demonstration resembles nothing more than a well-trained dog rolling and falling in response to the treat held in its master's hand. The "uke" looks at Ryabko like he's seeking approval. I just have to wonder what is going through the observing students' minds ("WTF??! I paid good money for this?" or "I believe, I have faith, he is the Master . . . ").

    In any event, I have to concur with Mr. LeBlanc that this particular aspect of Systema training does not seem to hold real value for law enforcement or practical self-defense training. The only real value would seem to be for Mr. Ryabko demonstrating just how foolish he can make a willing (and paying) student look.

    That is NOT the same as saying that Mr. Ryabko, or Mr. Vasiliev, aren't highly capable martial artists. Enough experienced martial artists from a variety of backgrounds have "tried them on" in friendly encounters that their own personal skills are apparent. But they don't demonstrate shit like is on the video clip when they take on challengers. Apparently you have to be a paying student to receive the "psychic energy" techniques.
    Tom Douglas

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    Anybody know which one is demonstrating it?

    Is it the one who is using Combat Ki?

    Or the one rolling in various ways?

    (Sorry if it sounds sarcastic)
    David Dyer
    4th Dan Black Belt
    Ro-Ken Karate Association

    It is the supreme art of the teacher to awaken joy in creative expression and knowledge. - Albert Einstein

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    I am working to make a good-faith effort at understanding the purpose of Mikhail Ryabko's demonstration on that clip. I would agree that the best chance for understanding what Mr. Ryabko is doing there would be to train with him or with Mr. Vasiliev. But that commitment (financial and psychological) to training carries with it the risk of believing in the reality of the "psychic energy" as a matter of blind faith (as a loyal student). I have trained a little with a student in the Ryabko group, who doesn't make use of or refer to anything like what Mr. Ryabko demonstrates in the clip.

    I found a useful paradigm over in the discussion forum at www.amerross.com/discus/, where Scott Sonnon talks about "soft work". It may be that what Mr. Ryabko is demonstrating is a type of "soft work" as Mr. Sonnon describes it (although as far as I know, Mr. Sonnon does not make use of this kind of demonstration or drill).

    Now, I've only done some of the basic movement training and conditioning in Mr. Sonnon's ROSS system, and haven't trained directly with him at all. I'm not experienced enough in either approach to Russian martial art to be an advocate for Ryabko/Vasiliev or ROSS. I'm just trying to get my mind around what the training value of Mr. Ryabko's demonstration would be, giving him the benefit of the doubt. To that end, I found the following discussion thread useful. There isn't a direct link to the individual thread itself, so I'm copying an abridged portion of it here (although the thread in its entirety is worth reading):

    "2002 Discussion Archives: "Psychic Energy" or balancing SOFT WORK & HARD WORK
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    By Scott Sonnon (Sonnon) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 12:43 pm:
    This is an interesting phenomenon I encountered many times inside Russia and other CIS countries.

    For instance, in ROSS, the borders of her training are closely guarded due to one exercise in particular. In ROSS this exercise is called Soft-Work. It is an unusually slow-fighting drill with equal time-framing and asymmetrical role-playing: one attacker, one counter-attacker.

    Soft-Work is an exercise something like sticky hands, something like push hands, but more like sparring done at slow motion, with joint yielding that ROSS calls Shock Absorption.

    Here's the problem - if one does Soft-Work alone, one inevitably suffers from hypersuggestability. Soft-Work's ONLY benefit is the ability to diminish fear-reactive flinching, bracing and resisting of force. It is a sophisticated drill not designed for preparing a soldier for combat in a short period of time. Soft-Work is NOT taught in this context in Russia. In Russia, if preparing with 8 weeks to depart to some hot zone, the POI is predominantly Hard-Work, which I'll get to later.

    Soft-Work if done sustained, tends to give a sensory impression that one can respond proactively to aggressive action. But this is a falsehood... and NOT the purpose of the drill. What I mean is this... action is always faster than reaction... but because of the time framing of the drill, the 1/4 second decisionary re-cognition phase of motor action in the counter-attacker is extended, so he can behave as if the attack is not threatening. Again, this drill is NOT for combat rehearsal. It is a psychological drill for diminishing autonomic arousal (respiratory rate and depth, heart rate, blood pressure, and most importantly muscular tension.) This drill's benefit then is in the autonomic regulation to sensitize the participant to false threats, and as a result to understand the depth of "true" threats. Again, a sophisticated drill, requiring trainees about a year of constant immersion... which is why it is relegated to SOU personnel who train "professionally" when not fingered for ops.

    I'm sure you can see why in ROSS we protect the boundaries of this drill. It is easy to develop "false courage" for combat, when this is not even the drill. This false courage actually inhibits effectiveness because the practitioner (of exclusively Soft-Work) then is subject to hypersuggestability - he can be manipulated by a stout fighter, by over-reaction to perceived threats.

    And more importantly, two trainees, who participate exclusively in Soft-Work, and not Hard-Work, can begin to feel as if they can manipulate their faux opponent with only the manipulation of his fear-reactivity. Only the most amateur assailant of diminutive morale would be affected by such manipulation... However, someone who is so mentally frail as to be manipulated by such psy-ops would be better dealt by a good swift slap to the eggs, which can be taught in one day, rather than in one year.

    Soft-Work is a necessary but insufficient component exercise for the ROSS system.

    Hard-Work, which is an exercise against fully resistant asymmetrical (ambush/counter-ambush, attack/counter-attack) and symmetrical ("sparring") opponent(s). The goal here is to take the emotional control of Soft-Work and apply it to the shyte hitting the fan. Remaining calm under increasingly more complex and varied combat multipliers and choas' friction. I don't need to go into this, but it ranges from simulation to scenario work...

    BOTH are necessary from the ROSS perspective. Retuinskih and Kadochnikov separated because of Retuinskih's influence from Sambo lent him the insight to espouse the necessity of tempering Soft-Work with the realism of Hard-Work; whereas Kadochnikov wanted to focus on the sophistication of Soft-Work.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    By Admin (Admin) on Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 03:57 pm:
    From: Don Rearic
    Date: 3/19/02 6:41:14 pm

    Howdy,

    I'm sitting here, racked with the flu and it's turning into something really bad.

    I have nothing more to do than read and think, I lie down, I feel like I'm drowning...

    The question might end up being multiples because I don't know where this is going to go...

    The first part is about what you refer to as " Soft-Work."

    Please remember, I have not viewed any ROSS material yet. Only Vladimir Vasiliev's and have viewed some comments by others Pro and Con about it.

    Am I correct in assuming that the Soft-Work is the absorption of strikes as I have viewed them in some of V.V.'s material, as well as Sambo Instructor Brett Jaques, in that, the body moves in a wave fashion, the chest or stomach hollowing out and the arms moving outwards or forwards?

    I'm sure that might only be one component, but is this what you were referring to in the other thread as to the origin of the "Psychic Energy" material being promoted by others?

    If so, if I might jump ahead and further comment that - when you said this can cause hyper-suggestibility in a person and that can lead to responses not normally encountered in more violent attackers...I have to say that makes complete sense.

    I get some heat because I find some value and interest in some of V.V.'s material. But people forget that I take heat from the diehard V.V. fans because I don't think I'm going to be lulled into falling asleep while grappling because I have my head on someone's chest.

    Someone actually said that to me, said I should feel it before I discount it, sometime in the past two weeks in another Forum [PractTac at BFC].

    I'm basically a pragmatic sort of fella. I understand very well that there might be things we do not understand or know about.

    For example. Sensei George Dillman's "Pressure Point Knockouts."

    I believe it is possible to do that sort of thing. We all know the radial and ulnar nerves react when they are struck. Brachial Plexus...etc. So, it does not take a Neurosurgeon to figure out there might be neurological responses that we do not understand or even know about.

    I temper that with the fact that I have seen a couple of "Pressure Point Knockouts" from a Dillman Instructor and while one looked honest to God like a knockout with no real attempt at trying to save from impact, another looked so fake I could not believe it was placed on tape.

    Another problem with that particular thing, Pressure Point Knockouts, is the fact that it would take an extraordinary high degree of accuracy in a streetfight and we know that is simply wishful thinking. In a streetfight, people are wild and flailing at times and you are never going to have the luxury of having that degree of pinpoint accuracy.

    I say these things are possible but not realistic. I don't think results can be reliably reproduced, too spotty in effect and most certainly not suitable for Life-saving because of the accuracy factor even if the "Pressure Point Knockout" DID exist...

    I hope I'm explaining myself clearly, I place alot of the "Psychic" realm and the comments you made about "hyper-suggestibility" into that Zone of "Art." The same as Pressure Point Knockouts.

    There are so many things we do not know about the human body in general and the brain in particular that alot of these things are possible but not consistently reproducible nor are they pragmatic, effective or in any way suitable for defending yourself [in my opinion].

    Entering into the Japanese Bugei Realm, into a "Shout of Intention" being a physical force that can be applied. I am of the opinion that if it does exist, it lies in the same Realm of what you state... hyper-suggestibility.

    I think when it comes to use of Edged Weapons for Self-defense, that hyper-suggestibility can be exploited at times, the problem being, you roll the dice and you never know who is going to fear the weapon and who will clearly not. Some people simply are too crazy or too "street" to be scared by anything except actual damage and threatening does no good.

    Yet, many people think they will wave the knife and their problems will go away...with no further training needed. They will meet a rather unfortunate and ugly demise if someone calls their bluff.

    So, what I have watched with V.V. and a knife, to be specific, are some elements I have seen in Filipino Arts, Silat and even Tantojutsu. Some things having to do with a thrusting feint to the midsection and an immediate redirection to the throat or face, etc.

    Those things can work, so I don't condemn him for everything he does although I admit, I do laugh at some of the more outlandish things like people flying all over the damned place, etc.

    What I want your comments on is this. Others may chime in as well.

    There is Magic, but not the flying around type of magic, that can be used. Fairbairn himself was said to study Magicians for Sleight of Hand in knife work, etc.

    And it makes complete sense, deliberate misdirection seems to be something that could run hand in hand with hyper-suggestibility as well.

    So, basically after the question about the "Soft-Work" you spoke of, what are your feelings/opinions on the rest of this and how these things all link together?

    Some being not possible, impossible to improbable to possibly effective enough to spend some time at...such as studying Sleight of Hand, etc.?

    http://www.drearic.com


    [SNIP]

    From: AoP37
    Date: 3/19/02 10:01:07 pm

    I have seen some Systema (via Arthur Sennott) - politics aside, some of it is pretty wacky, and seemingly effective. I have never seen the psychic stuff. If Don's assumption about the Soft-work is correct, I have seen a sparring session using it. And I have also 'tried' some of it.

    I'm not sure I can add anything to this thread, except to say I like the idea of absorbing some blows/ whatever. In some cases, like if someone pushes you, it can be devestating. But, BUT, there are still other things to do that seem quicker, less risky, and just as effective. That is probably where my own short comings are glaringly obvious. I am sure there are 'concepts' hidden in this that I can't apply to fighting, but others most likely can. I've seen a demonstration with absorbing a strike which changes angles on impact v. tensing through the same strike. One of my most trusted peers had this demonstration done on him, and swore that absorbing it felt much better. But it's still one of those things that's hard to believe unless it's been done on you, and it has yet to be done on me.

    What I think looks attractive about the Soft-work, is it looks like it helps one 'flow.' I'm not getting spiritual, I just mean the transition from tactic to tactic. This constant moving is one of the reasons I enjoy watching Kali/ Silat, and it seems training like this could definately help that.

    Well, now I'm quite certain that I didn't add anything to this, but maybe Mr. Sonnon can at least dispell or explain to me where some of my assumptions are wrong. I will reread his post on using the Soft-work again.

    AoP
    www.knifefighting.com

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: Don Rearic
    Date: 3/19/02 10:31:47 pm

    I'm awaiting Mr. Sonnon's return as I think it will be most interesting...

    I think my interpretation of what Mr. Sonnon stated about "Soft-Work," if I were to bust it down to the most elementary level...would be this:

    Some people become so engrossed in Soft Work that they begin to believe that everyone will act that way and they begin to build on a developmental drill and take it out of context in their immersion and they run with it...

    And possibly arrive at all the wrong conclusions...

    I think everyone that knows me around here, Mr. Sass and Grasso included, basically know what I'm about when it comes to V.V., I'm of the opinion that you can find a nugget of gold in there somewhere. The fact remains that some people do find more than a "little" skill at the hands of Vladimir while others embrace everything... I hope I'm expressing that correctly.

    I'm not a "Psychic Flip Artist" anymore than I'm a "believer" or "follower" in the Pressure Point Knockout "Scene." Just because I believe those sorts of knockouts might be possible, how practical is it on two levels?

    1. How long is it going to take you to learn something like that? In the meantime, you are missing out on a whole lot of time that could have been better spent because of #2;

    2. How in the hell can you hit very small points in a fight? Sure, sometimes you CAN, but as I am fond of saying, when you fight and you do something, you roll the dice. Place the bets carefully because the stakes are high.

    There is a world of difference between hitting a large patch of nerves on the top of the forearm mound, the radial nerves exposed there, in defending against a knife. When you pound on the top of the forearm with Ax Hands, that's really what you want to hit and if you don't, you don't and you chop'em down and hopefully beat the arm down and go high to neck/throat/head.

    But if you do land with a good Ax Hand on the top of the forearm in that patch, that bundle, you will cause some degree of dysfunction. That's what you want...just like when you come upward with a Cane, if you are lucky enough to shatter the elbow from underneath, GREAT! But if you hit the ulnar nerve, the famous "Funny Bone," it can affect an immediate disarm.

    We do target nerves, they are just large and easy to hit, even in WW2-based Combatives, in my opinion.

    The problem then becomes when people extrapolate from that and say, "Well, we can hit this much smaller nerve we have scientifically discovered and knock you out from the start..."

    That might be true but people are all different and the nerves are going to vary from place to place on two people of the same, basic size.

    Too many variables and too high a degree of accuracy required...as well as "time in" to justify the pursuit...

    Lots of discussion...
    http://www.drearic.com

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: Scott Sonnon
    Date: 3/20/02 1:13:39 am
    Don, thank you again for an even more distilled version of your initial post.

    "Some people become so engrossed in Soft Work that they begin to believe that everyone will act that way and they begin to build on a developmental drill and take it out of context in their immersion and they run with it...
    And possibly arrive at all the wrong conclusions..."

    Precisely! Expanded below.

    "Just because I believe those sorts of knockouts might be possible, how practical is it on two levels?
    1. How long is it going to take you to learn something like that? In the meantime, you are missing out on a whole lot of time that could have been better spent because of #2;
    2. How in the hell can you hit very small points in a fight? Sure, sometimes you CAN, but as I am fond of saying, when you fight and you do something, you roll the dice. Place the bets carefully because the stakes are high."

    Beautifully succinct.
    The POIs for someone trained in 8 weeks, someone trained in a year and someone trained over the course of a lifetime should be different (a later point I would issue would be that they should be progressive... one leading into the other.)

    "We do target nerves, they are just large and easy to hit, even in WW2-based Combatives, in my opinion."

    Beautifully stated. Training should be an ever increasing sophistication of gross-motor motions, which have AS A "fortunate" BY-PRODUCT of collateral damage in fine-motor incidentals.

    "The problem then becomes when people extrapolate from that and say, "Well, we can hit this much smaller nerve we have scientifically discovered and knock you out from the start..."

    Exactly! My main issue is with sophistication-envy. Anything that's "advanced" is that for which the rookie lunges. He sees the DI outperforming all the recruits and starts to follow the DI's all beef and tobacco diet. A kid first time on the court sees Michael Jordan and runs out to practice his super fresh lay-up (while wearing his MJ merchandise.) The martial art newbie sees a knock out touch, or a no-touch knockdown and assumes that this is an intended technique to be developed, and sets himself upon its rehearsal.

    However, success is invisible. Success was not in the specific details of the event, at the performance. What is invisible was the method of training.

    One misunderstands the apparent "success" of SOFT-WORK as technical proficiency, when this has nearly nothing to do with technique. One watches a video and attempts to replicate the sophisticated techniques shown in SOFT-WORK. One works with one's partner for years until one can predict exactly what the partner will perform, how he will react... Moreover, one knows precisely how the partner will attack, and since one does not want injury, with the luxury of significant reactionary gap, one gives one's partner the impression of success.

    That type of success is failure. Lethal failure for when one IS truly attacked, ask yourself what will happen.

    SOFT-WORK is only in the development of attributes... or rather... traits. The sole premise of SOFT-WORK is this:

    Fear creates tension. Tension amplifies pain, inhibits movement, and consumes energy.

    Fear creates in one tonic immobility, a clutching that inhibits performance and arrests development.

    SOFT-WORK IS A TOOL ONLY, which helps trainees learn to diminish trait anxiety, to inoculate the trainee to interpersonal violence, and instill fighting élan and esprit de corps.

    However, at the moment that SOFT-WORK no longer elicits emotional arousal in the trainee, you've met the limitation of the drill. If the individual does not get frustrated, does not break flow, can tactically improvise on-site, and does not become emotionally aroused (autonomic - referring to heart rate, blood pressure, muscular tension, etc.; and hormonal - "the chemical cocktail"), then it is time for HARD-WORK.

    Note: This is NOT a bipolar switch in ROSS. Through the incrementally progressive insertion of combat multipliers, the trainee sensitizes to the new level of intensity. The goal is to see how the trainee responds WHEN a mistake is made, and WHEN the unexpected occurs. It's not enough to do well. If you succeed in training, you fail on the street.

    It ONLY matters what can be accomplished when mistakes happen and when the unexpected occur.

    And this is the reason that limitations and dangers of SOFT-WORK need to be understood. Historically this was well researched and developed in the former Soviet Union, especially but not limited to biofeedback mechanisms on trainees.

    SOFT-WORK must graduate into HARD-WORK, and should being incrementally progressive, be all shades of grey, rather than the black/white that it appears in terminology.

    However, I see to often people that have deeply entrenched beliefs polarized in SOFT-WORK or HARD-WORK. Fixating on EITHER one endangers the trainee.

    The dangers of over trained HARD-WORK are another story, but for now, the dangers of over trained SOFT-WORK lay in the problematic development of a skewed tactical perspective, which I refer to as Hyper-suggestibility.

    Like life, we do not see combat as it is, but as we are... and worse, as we want it to be.

    Many people want in combat to have the successes of SOFT-WORK so desperately that they blindly flow through the drill past the saturation point.

    Once anxiety is removed from drill parameters, the drill should be discarded, OR the combat multipliers increased or intensified, another step (or more).

    In Russia, this method is called Tempering. In Sport Psychology, it's called developing Mental Toughness, resistance to emotional failure. This is the graduation into HARD-WORK.

    SOFT-WORK MUST reach towards HARD-WORK. If it is not graduated in a spectrum towards HARD-WORK, then SOFT-WORK is not only ineffective, but COUNTER-PRODUCTIVE.

    Fraternal,
    Scott Sonnon


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    By Admin (Admin) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 06:56 am:
    From: Don Rearic
    Date: 3/20/02 1:53:08 am

    The other night I was watching the News and this fish type of creature had washed up dead on a Florida beach. Looked like a cross between a duckbill Platypus and a fish. No one knew what it was, the Scientists are looking at it.

    Point being, we don't know everything and we don't know everything about our own bodies either. We're just now truly beginning to understand our own building blocks of DNA, etc.

    I am of the opinion that when you see people fall from a survivable gunshot, it is the hyper-suggestibility you speak of, they are Pre-Programmed by Hollywood Movies, etc,. to fall down and die.

    People that fight, well, they fight. They don't fall until their bodies tell them to on a physical level. So this concept of hyper-suggestibility has some merit in my opinion...on many different levels.

    I think the Psychic aspects of throwing and striking, etc., are very "Aiki" minded, the problem being, when that symbolic strike does not illicit the response needed for the rest of the movement to be effective...you get trashed.

    If someone is very impressed by Aikido, they might go into it so in fear of being hit...they might very well be locked up and/or thrown effectively.

    The problem, of course, is the combative assailant who is not impressed nor Pre-Programmed. Then you have a tiger by the tail because he is pounding on you.

    Nothing illustrates this better than Aikijujutsu Vs. Aikido. If you grab someone and you perform Aikijujutsu on them, you strike them, alot of the time more than once, and then you go into something like kotegaeshi -outside wristlock- and you have a success. In Aikido, it's all different because it has "progressed" into another realm. But the "progress" they think they have obtained is artificial and they have found nothing special...immersion in something else similar to Soft-Work as you detail it.

    As Mr. Cestari and Mr. McCann and quite a few others have pointed out, no one who is seriously into this stuff that has really worked with a partner who is being combative, no one is able to instantly "peel" a hand off of a throat or lapel grab or any such thing and immediately move into wrist out turn or in turn, etc., without having the Atemi to back it up. The Samurai knew that, if Aikido were the way to go and the whole concept(s) were viable for combat as some suggest, it would be quite logical to arrive at the conclusion that the Samurai would have pared away all of what some consider to be superfluous movement in the form of striking, etc., and they would have been using the "Aiki" side of things.

    But that did not happen and it did not happen for a reason. The Samurai were not pacifists and Ueshiba was. People forget that.

    In the context of this conversation, I see O-Sensei as one who Mastered the Hard Work and because of his own, personal philosophy, he embraced the Soft Work and now, because everyone is in awe of that Art, they wish to emulate that.

    Many of them have turned back to Aikijujutsu and some to Tomiki Ryu Aikido because of that as well. They found out that it was not what it was cracked up to be.

    I appreciate your response on this, it's more than simply "interesting" on more than one level. The effects of Soft Work on a physical level to diminish or prevent damage from strikes is medically valid. It's for that precise reason so many Drunk Drivers survive the accidents and their victims often die. They are so relaxed, they suffer little, if any, injuries at times.

    Good stuff, thank you.
    http://www.drearic.com

    [SNIP]

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: Scott Sonnon
    Date: 3/20/02 9:49:44 am

    Just for my own edification, I remember reading an article on the life of Ueshiba, which included a youth full of continual fighting. If that's true, if that's what happened, then the HARD-WORK platform was in place. In my opinion, too many genius innovators have discarded the HARD-WORK for the "apparent" success of later years, the continued refinement... the SOFT-WORK that occurs through chiseling away at David, as Michelangelo said, 'remove the large, difficult, necessary [stones] first, and the [refined] artwork makes itself.'

    SOFT-WORK and HARD-WORK need balance, need graduation into each other (and back again), need to be realized as to their appropriate conditions, such as duration of training time available.

    Moreover, one cannot express enough the power of MORALE. If one believes in something so strongly, one can overcome incredible obstacles, INCLUDING one's own survival trigger. If one believes in something so blindly, so unquestionably (hyper suggestibility), one can continue to "believe" in "it" even when one's own mortality lay at stake, such as in media induced belief in single stab wound deaths.

    Fraternal,
    Scott


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    By Jon Richardson (Richardson) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 11:58 am:
    "But that did not happen and it did not happen for a reason. The Samurai were not pacifists and Ueshiba was. People forget that. "

    People also forget that "-do" at the end of a Japanese fighting art invariably means that said art has been altered, by its founder, from its original combative form to one engineered to foster the development of certain attributes via its practice.

    Kendo, Judo, Aikido...


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    By Admin (Admin) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:22 pm:
    From: Carl Cestari
    Date: 3/20/02 3:06:19 pm

    Many(!) years ago there a method of training for Judo randori/shiai that was termed "French" randori.

    This "type" of randori was done at 1/2 speed(slow speed) and was practiced with the goal of perfecting and integrating the many variables needed for success in actual competition against a fully resisting opponent.

    This method bridged the gap between by rote systemized Kata practice, i.e. Nage No Kata and full out randori where often little real progress is made. Proper form being sacrificed to poor form for the sake of simply "not losing". This is where Judo simply becomes "jacketed wrestling" as Kano said.

    I believe that this method was devised by Kawaishi of France, and gained some popularity abroad for awhile. However, the goal of such training was lost, owing to the fact the pure competitive or "Olympic" style Judo took almost absolute sway.

    Would this type of "French" randori be analagous or parallel in intent to the "Soft-Work" training described?

    In the process of inculcating a learned motor skill, i.e. mechanical "form" to automatic reflex, such training seems entirely appropriate if not mandatory. One must learn to crawl before walking, and walk before running.

    Carl


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    From: Scott Sonnon
    Date: 3/20/02 5:17:47 pm

    Carl, this sounds exactly like the purpose of SOFT-WORK in ROSS.

    "full out randori where often little real progress is made"

    I could not agree more, here, Carl.

    This is the limitation of HARD-WORK. People misunderstand Dynamic drills, such as jacket-wrestling, catch-wrestling, fisticuffs, free-fighting, bayonet-fencing...

    Combat sport myopia (with which I am intimately familiar being a former US Nat'l Coach for Sambo and Bayonet Fencing) can lend the appearance that what happens in HARD-WORK should by the goal of training.

    HARD-WORK develops mental agility, emotional toughness, and physical doggedness. It is NOT the arena of technical discovery and refinement. Too often I see combat athletes misunderstand the role of dynamic drills, and moves into the drill as a reality, as an end, in itself... To win the game for the game's sake.

    If one does this... changes one's doctrine to winning the game for the game's sake, one defeats the drill itself, and denudes it of the inherent value. This is so because one will minimize risk and maximize high-percentage sport specific maneuvers. The role of HARD-WORK is not in winning, but in becoming inoculated to personal violence, in maintaining presence of mind in the face of a aggressive opponent, and familiarizing oneself with, albeit limited, chaos: personal mistakes and unexpected events.

    In my early years of Sambo competition, my development soared, as I became acquainted with the rough and tumble nature of the dynamic drill of hand to hand fighting. However, as I began to reach an international level of competition, I was coached that if I were to succeed I needed to stop all my foolish risk taking and concentrate on scouting my opponent's and seating in the easiest bracket, on stalling, on playing the referee, on working the mat, on winning the game for the game's sake.

    I had become a sportsmaster and as a result my development near totally arrested... As an international level fighter, national coach, international category referee, for me the drill had become a well known environment, meaning no unexpected events/variables, and with the manner in which I trained, and the degree to which I had been trained, the likelihood of me making a mistake had significantly diminished...

    As a result - little to no chaos.

    Little to no... development.

    It was only in '96 in St. Petersburg, Russia with several trainers of various Russian SOU that I was exposed to SOFT-WORK. I was awful, laughingly awful, because I attempted to defeat the drill every time. I tried to win the game. My movement was rigid, and I had a laundry list of injuries to show for my hardness.

    "In the process of inculcating a learned motor skill, i.e. mechanical "form" to automatic reflex, such training seems entirely appropriate if not mandatory. One must learn to crawl before walking, and walk before running."

    And in my case, I had to relearn how to crawl, in order to counter-condition the debilitating limp I called walking and the clamorous stumble I called running.

    The syncronicity of Kawaishi's "French" Randori sounds amazing. Thank you for sharing this! You're truly a deep repository.

    Fraternal,
    Scott Sonnon


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    By Admin (Admin) on Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 02:42 pm:
    From: Carl Cestari
    Date: 3/20/02 5:36:34 pm

    Scott,

    Don Draeger once stated that if Judo was to be a life-long endeavor it's training methodology must be made "sustainable".

    Sounds like ROSS has made this transition. The transtion from pure "form" to pure "function" (in combative sports often crippling) MUST have a middle ground so to speak. Perhaps even MORE important for those past their competitive prime who still "need" to train.

    Excellent posts, excellent insights.

    Thanks,
    Carl


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    By Scott Sonnon (Sonnon) on Thursday, March 21, 2002 - 08:37 am:
    There are many groups that I encountered in Russia on the "dark side" fixating upon SOFT-WORK. There are even schools named this very thing... SOFT-WORK, Soft-School, Soft-style, still others Slow-Sparring, Slow-work. It DOES work "in training" and it does have a positive physical impact upon development. However, untempered, unbalanced, SOFT-WORK floats to hyperbole, lending the appearance of martial flim-flam flummery.

    The success of ROSS, and Retuinskih's unique genius, lay in her interwoven heritage with Sambo. I say this not because of the artificial combat/sport schism. The sport versus combat argument finds no basis in reality... they are merely two camps so entrenched in their BELIEFS that they remain unwilling to BOTH concede the valid points issued by each other.

    SOFT-WORK and HARD-WORK are training methodologies, not training protocols. Symmetrical training protocol - SPORT - and asymmetrical training protocol - COMBAT are both valid depending upon if that training standard matches the specific venue of conflict.

    For instance, when preparing for boxing (symmetrical engagement), practice in suddenly violent counter-ambush scenario (asymmetrical training) training holds only indirect preparatory value. Contrarily, when preparing for law enforcement hostile subject control (asymmetrical engagement), practice in Sport Brazilian Jiu-jitsu (symmetrical training) holds only indirect preparatory value. Incontrovertibly, in either example, ANY such practice will afford SOME indirect benefit. However, since the protocol (symmetrical/asymmetrical) harbors imprecise pairing with circumstantial performance needs, there lay the problematic development. Simply, if preparing for symmetrical conflict, train symmetrically; if asymmetrical, asymmetrically.

    However, it is our training perspective (TIME SENSITIVE!) that regardless of training protocol, the incremental progression spectrum of SOFT-WORK to HARD-WORK (and back again) must be factored into the crafting of the specific program of instruction.

    I emphasize this because I fear that this online text presents SOFT-WORK as "combat" preparation and HARD-WORK as "sport" preparation, and that terribly misrepresents these methodologies.

    Both sport and combat divisions of Sambo emphasized HARD-WORK, which can be understood as "emotionally charged" - training through the medium of behavioral, autonomic and hormonal arousal. Although this was researched and developed, especially in regards to combat psychology and emotional biofeedback at DYNAMO, this is more a characteristic of Russian (much like American) culture: toughness, resistance to failure. In Russia, the process was called "tempering" (such as survival in hostile conditions; i.e. cold water dousing.)

    The third division of Sambo, "Combat Sambo Spetsnaz" as it was called during the Soviet Union's lifetime, emphasized SOFT-WORK, which can be understood as "counter-conditioning fear-reactivity" - training to diminish behavioral, autonomic and hormonal arousal. It did not have this scientific orientation UNTIL the research conducted at DYNAMO.

    One can understand the limitation of polarizing in HARD-WORK training as one's performance ceiling. One's "fear-reactivity" level determines the bandwidth of one's peak performance threshold.

    SOFT-WORK training educates us in diminishing our reaction to combative stress, let's say on a bandwidth of 10 levels of intensity (emotionally perceived effort). For example, with emotional threshold training intensity level TEN, one has supramaximal response - your maximum respiratory rate, heart rate, blood pressure, etc. One can't go to TEN without endangering oneself. The same is true of energy levels, impact absorption, motor control, etc. In each performance threshold, intensity TEN lay beyond safety levels for sustainable training.

    In SOFT-WORK one operates within submaximal effort - the first FIVE levels reduce one's arousal (the internal reaction to perceived effort) when exposed to each increment of challenge. From our perspective, this is necessary, but insufficient for combative hardiness, for it does not address the last five incremental clicks of challenge (mentally perceived effort).

    HARD-WORK expands peak capability by taking you into the realm of supramaximal effort. HARD-WORK increases training complexity (physically perceived effort) beyond one's capable to diminish arousal. Here one becomes tasked to MANAGE one's arousal. In SOFT-WORK one only addresses autonomic arousal - respiration, heart rate, blood pressure, muscular tension. In HARD-WORK one address when autonomic arousal instigates hormonal arousal. There are two brands of hormonal/endocrine arousal:

    1. The body responds by incrementally secreting chemicals as the "volume" of intensity, challenge and complexity GRADUALLY increases beyond level FIVE (SOFT-WORK's domain) into SIX and up to TEN (HARD-WORK's domain).

    2. The body responds by DUMPING chemical secretions into the bloodstream when intensity, challenge and complexity rapidly jumps increments; for instance, suddenly violent attack scenarios. The chemical dump elicits peculiar psychophysiological events, such as visual distortion/tunnel vision, auditory exclusion, and a host of other events outside the context of this article.

    It is our position that exposure to DUMPING is not necessarily positive for survivability. For the demands of short-duration/terminal training, exposure to DUMPING is necessary for immediate combative effectiveness. However, continual repetition of DUMPING has been proven to cause a variety of stress related illnesses, diseases and death.

    When longer duration/indefinite training permits, one can gradually increase the volume of intensity, challenge and complexity so that DUMPING does not occur. This involves a sophisticated synergy between SOFT-WORK and HARD-WORK, not a stone, dogmatic sequence, but a tailored program of instruction unique to each individual's pattern of fear-reactivity, and expected venue of conflict engagement.

    One can use the tandem training methodologies of HARD-WORK and SOFT-WORK to become exposed to high levels of complexity (physical perceived effort) with significantly diminished challenge (mental perceived effort) and intensity (emotional perceived effort).

    BOTH training methodologies are necessary, and only both suffice for development, for increasing one's performance threshold.

    Russia and the USSR did not have the pharmaceutical sophistication of Asian style combatives training. For the Russians and for the Soviets, combatives training was not so much on the collection of specific skills, but more the cultivation of the necessary and sufficient attributes to navigate through crises - to think critically and respond proportionally, sufficiently, prudently, and covertly.

    The interwoven history of the teachers of A. Retuinskih, the founder of ROSS - deriving from each stem of Sambo's creation, from old Spiridonovan SAMOZ, from rough and tumble Oschepkovan style SAMBO, and from the general wrestling style of Kharlampievan style SAMBO... each of these impacted simultaneously to create this balance, and the incremental progression of SOFT-WORK to HARD-WORK.

    Fraternal,
    Scott Sonnon"
    Tom Douglas

  11. #11
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    Here is a post at James Williams' bugei.com forum by Arthur Sennott, who trains under Vladimir Vasiliev and teaches "Systema" in Massachussetts. What the video clip of Mr. Ryabko shows may be what Mr. Sennott refers to as "soft aiki," a practice that he attributes to Don Angier and others as well as to the Systema art. For what it's worth:

    "posted May 22, 2002 00:36
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    [SNIP]
    Some of you probably know me from the Systema forum; my name is Arthur Sennott. These days I'm a Systema guy, but in the not so distant past, I was quite enthralled by Aiki Ju Jutsu, and originally started out in Judo.
    [SNIP]
    In all seriousness, Non Contact Manipulation? Putting people to sleep through breath matching?
    NCM? I first observed this by Don Angier in the late 80's. He did a wonderful job of explaining the psychology and physics of basic NPC. At that time, I believe we called one standard application of this the 'invisible block'. I'm not sure if that was Don's term, or our Dojo term, but it was certainly a reality when applied in the right situation. I also remember Don at the same general time describing and demonstrating a Shidare Yanagi Ryu principle, he termed 'the void'. Another manifestation of the psycho-physical which frequently resulted in NCM.
    In fact, I think I remember Don having in depth discussions with me about many Judo Nage Waza incorporating this idea in the older days, but that it was now best seen in the Sutemi waza, as a void is near naturally induced.
    At any rate, physics and psychology both speak to the issue of NCM quite loudly. Have you never seen a boxer fall over in a bout, without contact? Have you never walked through the woods, and had a threatening twig make you stumble more than was good for your reputation? Have you never thought there was just one more stair in that staircase, and landed down upon all fours? Well, I don't know about you, but I have and when it happened, I was quite curious as to why. Upon investigation heck it turns out to be the same stuff that Don Angier and Mikhail Ryabko talk about.
    Considering all the everyday examples of NCM that happen, it would seem silly to me not to embrace it.
    A serious question, not a flame: why should we view this any differently than Rich Mooney's "Empty Force" stuff?
    Regardless of the accuracy of Mr. Mooney's claims, we should treat all things on a case by case basis. We should examine the facts, examine the science, ask if the 'science' is sound, re-examine the facts and science, form a hypothesis, test the hypothesis, re-examine if we had enough knowledge to design the test, test our knowledge, re-evaluate the hypothesis, look at the results, consider doing the whole thing over. Or I suppose that we could decide that we know everything already, and skip all that.
    Of course there is also that issue of definable psychological reflexes and basic physics to contend with. Not a flame but IMO, if people were to put a serious effort into understanding basic biomechanics, they could clearly see for themselves why people are falling down on Col. Ryabko's tapes. This in itself is a quick and easy reason as to why this subject could be viewed differently than Mr. Moony's proclamations. Watch in slow motion, ask yourself, why? For each motion. The answer is there. No one is asking you take their word.
    Speaking of which, Systema instructors are known for their willingness to openly share, teach and be tested. If you have doubts, if you ask why should I?... the best answer is because you felt it, and you now know better. Go ask someone. It can really be that simple.
    I don't know about other traditions, but we are generally happy to share with someone the first day. There's really no time investment, no monetary investment; if that's too much of a hassle, then the question really isn't why should we believe, but why don't you try it. Well, my thoughts anyway.
    'In all honesty, the Non-Contact/Psychic Energy stuff always strikes a sour note with me.'
    Well, your honesty is appreciated, and personally, I think our System would be better served if we never mentioned it, however I do point you to the above. Its really just all physics and psychology. You do believe in physics and basic psychology don't you?
    [SNIP]
    'I have seen Don Angier on video and frankly to me it LOOKS like totally cooperative, soft-aiki TRAINING...like a real fight? Not by a long shot.'
    Then you should train with Don. If you think the same of Mikhail, then you should train with Mikhail, and if you think the same of Vladimir, then you should train with Vladimir. Don, Mikhail, and Vladimir have all utilized their 'soft aiki' in real situations. I'm guessing many members of this board have as well.
    Actually, I suppose there is some truth in that statement. Its not like a real fight; its not like a fight at all. That's the point really. As soon as you start to fight, you have lost. A fight is a struggle. In Systema we do not fight, we do not struggle. From what I understand, and what I have felt from Don, in Aiki it is the same.
    I can't speak for Aiki, heck I can't really speak for Systema. I can only speak for myself. I've been in plenty of serious altercations. The only time they were a problem, is when I let them be a 'fight'. Systema and Aiki have both served me well in life threatening scenarios.
    Ask my students, who are of many different backgrounds, as to the 'real fight value'. I've had bouncers, Muay Thai fighters, Boxers, police officers, SF, NHB fighters, and former bullies, etc. all as students. The impression I get they are all quite happy with the results of the 'cooperative, soft aiki' practice.

    'So I am also attending the Don Angier seminar in Portland next month to feel his stuff first hand.'

    That's a great idea! Though by now that was 2 months ago. Are you going to report in? Was it real enough?
    They have a saying on the Neija list IHTBS (It Has To Be Shown). I¡¦m thinking, more importantly, IHTBF (It Has To Be FELT).
    Talk to ya later,
    Arthur"
    Tom Douglas

  12. #12
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    The guy in the videotape reminds me of Danny "Kensho" Furuya. Drops his uke without touching.

    Sorry, all, but this just looks entirely bogus to me. I don't buy the "ki through dead air" thang. Give me body mechanics -- subtle as can be, yet still there is a connection, a connectedness. Dropping a guy without physical contact? Only if uke is psychologically attuned to nage (e.g. tank-o-rama).
    Cady Goldfield

  13. #13
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    Default it is "tanking" . . . but with a training purpose

    Well, at least that's how it's explained by the guy who posted the clip. Bill Glasheen, Uechi-ryu's resident skeptic, apparently takes the explanation at face value in this thread from Uechi-ryu.com. Glasheen helped organize the field "test" debunking Richard Mooney's "empty force". From http://www.xpres.net/~gmattson/ubbs/

    "IP: Logged

    jellyman

    Posts: 3
    Registered: Jul 2002
    posted July 09, 2002 08:20 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Okay, I don't know what 'empty energy' is, therefor I don't have an opinion. But I DO have an opinion on systema.
    This is a demo on evasive movement. You're right, the rolling guy is working hard. He is showing his skill at evasion. He is not supposed to be falling, but avoiding. You may wish to consider how easy it is to hit a man who moves like that. You don't HAVE to evade. You can stay put or attack if you like. But be advised that if you choose to do so, there may be very physical ramifications. As I said on my site, gentlemen, this is high level stuff. If you don't see the threat in the movements, you are not at a high enough level to appreciate this work. That clip is for more advanced students to oooh and aaah over.

    Mikhail Ryabko himself (the standing man) on the tape 'Beyond the Physical' explains the whole thing. There is no magic. There are no fairies. There is only the mind, our bodies, and what they have both been conditioned to do. If you walk through the woods behind someone, and you see a branch snapping back toward you eyes, what do you do? Do you stand there, rooted to the spot, or move? Same thing, gentlemen, same thing. Unless of course, you don't care about your eyes... In which case, you'll get a branch in the eye.

    peace

    john elliott

    aka jellyman
    http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB/
    http://communities.msn.ca/RMAHamilton/_whatsnew.msnw

    aka poobear
    www.mma.tv

    BTW, this guy lives in Russia (I taped the clip in Russia) but does make it to the Western Hemisphere every so often. He will happily demonstrate on anyone who asks. And often has.

    I would suggest you forget whatever Asian mythology you grew up with when viewing systema work. They do not really figure into the systema paradigm, which is russian, and not even asian, after all.

    Also, if you look at my site, I make it quite clear that there is nothing unusual going on. No magic.

    oh yes, and nothing is prearranged.


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The guy in the camo was manhandling himself so much he kept almost accidently kicking the witch doctor in the head.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That is no accident. Dudes have been ko'd in our club that way.




    [This message has been edited by jellyman (edited July 09, 2002).]

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    Traveler in the Arts

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    posted July 09, 2002 09:38 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by jellyman:
    [B]Okay, I don't know what 'empty energy' is, therefor I don't have an opinion. But I DO have an opinion on systema.
    This is a demo on evasive movement. You're right, the rolling guy is working hard. He is showing his skill at evasion. He is not supposed to be falling, but avoiding.

    [snip]

    peace

    john elliott

    aka jellyman
    http://russianmartialart.org/forum/phpBB/
    http://communities.msn.ca/RMAHamilton/_whatsnew.msnw



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Thanks for posting the explanation and links. When I downloaded and viewed the demo there was no sound, however my impression was as you say that it was a demo on evasion and recovery with impressive stamina and training evidenced by the evader.

    Since there was no audio, I couldn't hear a description of what was going on. I tried to find links to your site but was unsuccessful.

    Thanks,
    John

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    jellyman

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    posted July 09, 2002 10:01 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This is my site:
    http://communities.msn.ca/RMAHamilton/home.htm
    The reason I have no audio is because it made the file even bigger than it is (28MB), and I'm not so good with compressing these things. Space costs money, and I've only 50MB to play with This is footage from the 2001 trip to Moscow, which I went on. The footage will be commercially released at some point in the future, albeit from a different camera angle (ie not my camera). At that time, you'll hear the explanation in the original russian and through an interpreter.

    If you go to my site, you'll see some photos from the trip. We spent some time on a spetsnaz base as well (those guys are spetsnaz), the photos are mostly from there.

    [This message has been edited by jellyman (edited July 09, 2002).]

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    Bill Glasheen

    Posts: 2699
    Registered: Mar 99
    posted July 09, 2002 10:12 AM
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    As I wrote...
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The eyes get used to what is real, and what is forced. CammoGuy is working really hard here.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Then jellyman wrote..

    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I don't know what 'empty energy' is, therefor I don't have an opinion. But I DO have an opinion on systema.
    This is a demo on evasive movement. You're right, the rolling guy is working hard.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Well at least when I clean the egg off my face, I can say that I was right.
    Thank you for the explanation. Sorry...we're a bit punch drunk around here with some of the empty energy stuff. If this has nothing to do with that, and instead is advanced ukemi, then I understand and appreciate the demo.

    - Bill"
    Tom Douglas

  14. #14
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    You know, I have never read so much about systema and psychic energy with a certain somone's name attached before. This is definitely one for the archives. I had no idea SS did systema.

    I am john elliott, and I am the guy who put up the site running the clip. Here is my web page.

    http://communities.msn.ca/RMAHamilton/_whatsnew.msnw

    On ths web page is the clip you guys are talking about. I will paste here what I have printed their:

    The second clip with Mikhail and Sergei is massive, and is high-level - in other words, unless you are at least somewhat familiar with how systema works, you may not really appreciate it. Trust me though, it's some good stuff. As outlined in the fantastic tape, 'Beyond the Physical' this has nothing to do with magic or secret powers. Just a man saving his skin.
    If you go to the page, you will find a link to purchase said tape.

    So what IS that video clip? What the hell is going on??

    It's really very simple. In spetsnaz, it's no good just training for an unarmed assailant. You must have better evasion skills than that. The excercise you witness has been done with naked blades, knife and sword, cossak wips, sticks, and fists. With the rest of the body thrown in, of course. What makes the guy roll? Is he taking cues from Mikhail? Well, if he doesn't move, he will get hit. He understands that. Not everybody understands that at first, of course, and in fact, if you buy the tape 'Beyond the Physical' you will see in the trailers mikhail giving a brief, painful, 'live' demonstration to a much larger, very experienced man.

    The concept is called respect for the weapons. A fist comes at you, and you cannot parry. You have split second to do something. What to do? Move out of the way. Now, just because the man is avoiding doesn't mean he's passive. If you look, you can see him trying to kick Mikhail as he rolls. Remember, just because someone is rolling doesn't mean he's 'lost'! It may look good to the uninitiated, or the referees, but in reality, it's just a movement to safety and survival. 'Psychic' in psychic energy, under Ryabkos interpretation refers to the mind. Psychology.

    Now, you may wish to argue about how effective this all is, and I can regail you all the livelong day abut how great it is for me, the guys I've sparred with, the result I've seen, and you won't believe me if you don't want to. The ultimate proof is doing it. This internet thing can only go so far.

    You have questions, I'll take them.

    Or better still, go to the systema board and ask there.

    I'll be reading the previous posts momentarily.

  15. #15
    jellyman Guest

    Default

    ' If we're talking about training rolling escapes or taking falls on a hard floor, there are better ways to train it.'

    What, by rolling by yourself?

    'If we're talking about training the student's ability to sense and evade, there are more thorough ways to train that in response to more realistic "attacks" than are presented in the clip.'

    You can't get more realistic than unpredictability. If you prepare for anything, you'll be ready for anything.

    'The common criticism of this teacher was that a) he could only do this with his own students, and even then, with specially chosen students who were more "sensitive" than others and had spent a decent amount of time with him and b) those students sometimes started to tank at the mere suggestion of movement and intent from the teacher, i.e. they had become hyper-susceptible to the teachers cues.'

    Mikhail can do this to anyone. Once he hits them a couple times, it works like a charm. In fact, when asked what he does when the person doesn't move, he said 'I hit them to let them know I am serious'.

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