Systema - Russian "aiki"

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[Jay Bell]

*click* Light bulb just went on.

Kwan came up to me and pointed you out...saying that you trained with Obata sensei...but I didn't realize who you were

I was outside with you and James when he was talking about his very extensive title collection

I wish you could have seen more. That stick is a singer in Vlad's hands.

I'll write more about the seminar when I get some time later tonight.

[James Williams]

Nathan,

I wish that you had gotten the opportunity to be able to see and work with Vladimir I know that you would have found it very interesting. Many things in Systema look similar to other arts however when you actually work with them you find that they are really quite different. I was surprised when i first work with Mikhail Ryabko how different the actual experience was from the opnon that I had formed from watching the video's. Far more sophisticated and subtle than it looks on tape and at the same time very effective.

Vladimir will not be back this way until the Aiki Expo so I look forward to seeing you there. You know that you are always welcome in my dojo for what ever exchange of ideas you are interested in. Give me a call the next time that you are in the area.

Regards,

James

[jchetty]

I've been lurking around here for a while now. I don't post much as I'm here primarily to learn from the more knowledgeable. I feel I am able to gauge which members are worth listening to (for their knowledge) and which members have their opinions (which they are entitled to).

So I am quite intrigued by Systema given that people like James Williams gives it this much respect. Especially after watching James chop up those tatami roles, he seems like a no BS guy.

However, if anybody made claims of a Japanese art with a 1000 year history, nurtured by budhist monks, blah, blah etc. They would be ridiculed, posted up in bad/baffling budo, mercilessly attacked etc. In almost all cases deservedly so.

But James makes similar claims for Systema (as well as claims of "psychic techniques"). My natural, sceptical, reaction to these claims is "yeah right!".

So my questions for James (and anyone else) are :
1) What evidence is there for Systema's historical claims?
2) Why do you call some of their techniques psychic? I would appreciate your reasoned opinion on this one.

Thanks for your time,

Respectfully,

Jairaj Chetty

[Mark Jakabcsin]

Originally posted by jchetty


So my questions for James (and anyone else) are :
1) What evidence is there for Systema's historical claims?

Jairaj,
I ain't James (I'm much shorter) but I am 'anyone else' so I will take a stab at this. The claims of Systema history are just that claims. Believe it or not that is your choice. Considering the country that Systema has come from and that countries history in the past 80 years it is unlikely that you will ever see the written historical proof you desire. Whatever proof did exsist was most likely destroyed in the 20's and 30's as Stalin attempted to remove all things Russian and/or that tied back to the Czars. If this lack of written proof means you are not interested in the art, so be it. You are free to look elsewhere.

Personally, I don't think a system as deep as Systema could be developed in one generation. This does not validate the claims, but then I am not overly concerned with the claims to begin with. The system far exceeds anything else I have seen to date.

Originally posted by jchetty

2) Why do you call some of their techniques psychic? I would appreciate your reasoned opinion on this one.

I am not sure the term 'psychic' is used in the same context as you are implying in your post. A quick review of the dictionary has the following definitions: adj. 1 (of a person) considered to have occult powers such as telepathy, clairvoyance, etc. 2 of the soul or mind -n. 3 person considered to have psychic powers.

I realize the common use of the word psychic is the first or third definitions and those are the ones everyone jumps to, however in my limited experience in Systema I believe when Vladimir uses the word psychic he is using definition number 2. From what I have seen Systema has an indepth study of the mind (both uke & tori) and how best to use or manipulate the mind with real or perceived stimuli. This is wholely different than definition number 1. Nothing mystical about it, although sometimes the results are a bit freaky. Take care.

mark

[James Williams]

Mark,

Thanks for stepping in with an excellent viewpoint and good information.

Jairaj,

There are several factors here and I will try and address them the best that I can.

When I first viewed Systema on video tape I could tell that it was an edged weapon (sword) based art as this is an area with which I am familiar. (And when we talk of Systema we are referring to Ryabko Systema as taught by Mikhail Ryabko and his very superior student Vladimir Vasiliev.) All of the core movements and strategy come from an environment that existed for a long time in human history. There is a version of Systema or perhaps several that do not evidence this connection to any great degree. Even though I was impressed by the video’s I did not realize how sophisticated Systema was until I spent some time with Mikhail. I have also had the benefit of working with Misha with broad swords in Russia. He worked with me because of my interest in the ancient roots and how they impact the more modern aspects of the art. I hope to continue that study this summer in Moscow.

The Russian Orthodox monks, unlike Roman Catholic monks, defended their own monasteries. There are accounts from the 11th and 12th centuries of monks fighting with swords against far greater odds and prevailing. Russian Orthodox Christianity also has some practical mystical aspects, for want of a better word at the moment, that seem to have been lost in the western tradition. Obviously much of the curriculum has been changed to adapt to the more modern environment however the roots are still the driving force behind what is more of an operating system than a martial art in the normal use of the term. Systema is not made up of techniques, has no forms, and is not taught in the way that you would be used to in other martial arts. Because of this aspect Systema cannot be written down in the manner say of Okuden scrolls etc. that might be part of an Oriental system. I am hoping to finish an article on Systema after I get back in town next week that might also shed some light on this subject. So it is the strategy and operating system that has evolved and been passed down not a set ryuha.

Physic energy is also something that I will explain in more detail in the article. Look at it like fire. We don’t own it and can’t “make” it. It is not an intrinsic part of us. We learned how to recognize conditions in which fire will manifest as an energy release. We can use it and create those conditions and this gives us ability. There are many other analogies to existing energy systems that we use most of which at one time in human history we did not know how to access, there are others that most of mankind are not aware of. This does not mean that these energies do not exist it just means that they cannot be used at this point until awareness and understanding reach a point where we can access them. Again a post is not sufficient to go into great detail.

The best way is through experience. Go to a seminar and actually feel what is happening. Something like Systema cannot be viewed and understood. Some of it will immediately “look” something like things that you are familiar with however when you experience them they will not be the same.

I have been very fortunate in being able to train with some truly exceptional men throughout the world from various disciplines. This gives men some basis for comparison. Systema has the most free and sophisticated operating system that I have seen and that alone warrants closer inspection.

Sincerely,

James

[jchetty]

Thank you both for your replies.

Systema is really hard to describe adequately, I don't follow much of what you guys are saying about the nature of it. I guess watching it on screen might be a bit better, but not much.

As to the historical claims. You guys (both of you) are saying it appears to be old because of its richness/depth. In addition James is saying it appears to be old as it exhibits the traits of a sword based art. Both are valid arguments for me, but not evidence.

I would not make those historical claims though. Systema seems to impress you guys without needing them. That should be enough. There are more than a few proveably old arts that are not very good and lots of new ones that are good.

As to the "psychic" techniques, Marks second definition I could accept. If I'm correct in understanding it to be stuff like subtle deception etc. The stuff James brings up about other energies etc. I don't follow so will leave alone.

Systema does intrigue me a little. I'd like to see it some time, but as I don't live in North America I don't have the same opportunities you guys have (seminar circuits etc.)

Thanks for your time,

Jairaj Chetty

[budoboy]

I was at the seminar this weekend at the Dojo of the Four Winds. I'd like to share some of my impressions.

Overall I was very impressed. I really was surprised that they did not practice techniques. Everything was spontaneous and without form. Even the attacks were not preset. I see this freedom and adaptability as stemming from a form of mushin. Vladimir was so relaxed and calm when dealing with unpredictable attacks.

The aiki was similar to what I had experienced in the Bujinkan and in Yanagi Ryu Aikijujutsu. Lots of timing tricks and attention diversions. Very effective against a good uke or determined attacker.

Another thing I liked was their method of hitting with only the dead weight of the limb. Striking in that manner was not only extremely effective (felt like a firecracker went off inside my body) but it gives the uke no input as to your position. My friend Clayton was able to hit me from angles I did not think he could possibly hit me based on his relative position to me.

Also interesting was the way they used consecutive strikes alone to imbalance and throw an attacker to the ground. I really liked this.

I did not see many finishing moves(joint locks, immobilizations, etc.) Vladimir seemed more interested in flowing and dropping the opponent to the ground.

Also much like any art your uke will partially determine your level of success. I trained with a few guys who were tired and did not feel like receiving which made flowing with them difficult. This is the lot of the reason in many arts why people end up manhandling their partners.

I highly recommend checking it out if you get the chance.

Jeff Sherwin

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[kokumo]

Originally posted by James Williams
Russian Orthodox Christianity also has some practical mystical aspects, for want of a better word at the moment, that seem to have been lost in the western tradition.

Psychic (correction fl) energy is also something that I will explain in more detail in the article. Look at it like fire. We don’t own it and can’t “make” it. It is not an intrinsic part of us. We learned how to recognize conditions in which fire will manifest as an energy release. We can use it and create those conditions and this gives us ability. There are many other analogies to existing energy systems that we use most of which at one time in human history we did not know how to access, there are others that most of mankind are not aware of. This does not mean that these energies do not exist it just means that they cannot be used at this point until awareness and understanding reach a point where we can access them. Again a post is not sufficient to go into great detail.

I don't know anything beyond what I've seen of the clips of Systema, but as a student of comparative religion, I can confirm some portion of what James writes here. Both the Greek and Russian Orthodox traditions have preserved various kinds of contemplative and meditative exercises that were, for the most part, forcibly suppressed within the Roman Catholic and Protestant traditions; there have been a number of very small scale inter-tradition sharing and learning initiatives in this respect in the past two decades. One of the factors that has made this possible is that contemplative monastics are often much more concerned with specific practices and specific effects than with doctrinal pronouncements regarding any of the above, whatever faith they are ostensibly aligned with.

In addition, along with the Russian Orthodox faith, Buddhism is a legally recognized religion in Russia and the former Republics, as a result of its longstanding role within the culture. And Buddhism has a long, long tradition of detailed study in this same area of "psychic energies." Given the lengthy coexistence of the Orthodox and Buddhist (particularly Tantric Buddhist in North Central Asia) traditions and the aforementioned tendency to focus on PRACTICE of both, it would be fairly surprising if there wasn't some serious interchange. It is also the case that Mongolian Buddhist monastics protected their own monasteries on a number of documented occasions and were interested in such applications, which would generally be named "siddhi." The flexibility of individual teachers wrt to the social or religious background of people they ran into is a clear feature of Buddhist Tantric literature; teachers are generally presented as bumping into someone when conditions are right and that person is "ripe," which is ultimately the most important thing. So additional avenues for cross-fertilization existed for a long, long time.

The tantric literature is also replete with cautionary tales emphasizing the way in which the development of "siddhi," absent a fundamental baseline of ethical behavior, can lead to bad results for the practitioner and others; this seems very much in keeping with some of the emphasis James has placed in earlier posts on Systema.

My point is not that this is Buddhist material which has been preserved in the Russian Orthodox tradition, but that there is good evidence that individuals of the same culture in both the Buddhist and Russian Orthodox traditions focussed on these matters historically, and that there is a long history of interplay between those traditions which hasn't been much studied (or if it has, the material is almost all written in Mongolian or Cyrillic letters). So, even absent a documentary trail, a lot of the features are congruent enough with the claims that if we were talking rare birds, many serious birders would regard Systema as worth a trip to see if this really is a species once thought to be extinct.

Conversely, I tend to be pretty skeptical about this sort of claim and it's usually pretty easy to dismiss them out of hand. I think this one bears closer examination.

Best,

Fred Little

[Tom Douglas]

This comment is not about Ryabko and Vasiliev's Systema in particular, but Russian martial arts generally. Russian martial arts emerged from multiple roots, some of which are undoubtedly very ancient, some of which (like Kadochnikov's system)continue to evolve. Following is an interesting look at some of those historical sources. Much of the development appears to have happened in the twentieth century, stemming from late-Czarist-era and post-Revolutionary work, including "field research" at Kano's Kodokan and wandering around Mongolia and China.

http://glory.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/s...rt/ruseng.html

Here is another interesting article on an encounter between Chinese and Soviet troops, in part dealing with hand-to-hand combat:

http://members.tripod.com/~CombatMachine/kemp05_e.htm

Finally, there is a Ukrainian gentleman in the San Diego area who works with a martial art that includes a lot of Chinese influences (this from a baguazhang teacher there that I know). In the course of following this up, I came across the remarkable (to me) fact that historically (over the past several hundred years), people of Russian ancestry have lived in Chinese domains, continuing to speak Russian and maintain their Russian culture and identity--even today. The possibilities for cross-fertilization in martial arts seems great in those circumstances.

I'd also like to respond to one of the two distinctions Nathan raised in an earlier post distinguishing between Systema and traditional Japanese ryu-ha, something to the effect that to him Systema does not appear to have a traditional etiquette or standard of behavior attached to it. At least in the Ryabko/Vasiliev teaching, there is much emphasis on simple common decency, and an atmosphere of authentic good will in hard training that is not commonly seen even in very traditional Japanese dojos.

Ryabko has been quoted as saying that being "a good person" is essential to Systema practice. I don't know whether this simple moral tenet is Ryabko's overlay, or was central to the way Systema was taught to Spetsnaz units (but it is hard for me to imagine concern among Spetsnaz troops for anything more than lethal efficiency as they slit the throats of sleeping Afghans, nor much of a moral center in Stalin's bodyguard "Uncle Peter" who taught Ryabko). The balance and tension between the warrior's code of conduct and the lethality of his martial practice is a fascinating topic.

[Nathan Scott]

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[Jay Bell]

Hey Nathan,

From my understanding, the student you spoke of seems to put the chicken before the egg.

Sambo was the attempt at the Soviet government to stifle Russian Martial Art under one banner of combat and sport. It's said to be the ecclectic bringing together of Jujutsu, Judo, Kickboxing and 25 seperate styles of Russian combat systems.

Systema, in it's current form, was developed by the Soviet government based on the Russian ethnic combat systems. Many arts were researched looking for something that they felt encompassed everything they needed in hand-to-hand combat and health. It was understood by them that they already had everything they needed in the old styles of Russian Martial Art.

Taken from a Sambo history site:

"As the yoke of the oppressive Soviet regime lifted, the information and the truth concerning its intentional covert nature and the wealth of research and experimentation became available to rest of the world. With the veil of deception removed, Sambo is recognizable in its ultimate origin: Russian Martial Art.

Although Russian Martial Art is the mother of Sambo, due to the influence of foreign "tricks", Sambo soon became a mere curriculum of techniques lacking any high degree of depth and substance. To avoid Soviet attention, Russian Martial Art remained in practice under the concealed title of "Combat Sambo Spetsnaz" at higher levels within the military, among the elite combat subdivisions of Spetsnaz. Even though classified with the label of "absolute secrecy", the training was often referred to merely as "The System".

Sambo continues to be confused with Russian Martial Art because of the state-fashioned falsification and distortion of historical and technical data, as well as the vanguard protection of Russian Martial Art heritage under the guise of the title, "Combat Sambo Spetsnaz"."


For more, click here

[Nathan Scott]

[Post deleted by user]

[James Williams]

Gentlemen,

There are a few things here that i would like to clear up. Mikhail Ryabko was not taught by “Uncle Peter”. One of Vladimir's early teachers was this man. When I asked Vladimir what the difference was with Mikhail’s Systema Vladimir said that it was more pure.

Mikhail is Russian Orthodox, much of his “inner” training comes from these roots. His physical training was basically completed by his mid teens and most of the rest of his training consisted of more subtle breath related and psychic energy work.

Asking a Russian about the Systema that was taught by Mikhail to a very select number of elite Spets personnel, about 100, is not going to be of any value. They will know nothing of this except perhaps by rumor if they were in other Spets units, or have actually worked with Mikhail. Soviet Society was extremely closed with little information dissemination especially in regards to this type of training. This military community is still not talkative about training or military operations and it is difficult to get much information from them.

Regards,

James