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Thread: The Nine Ryu-ha of the Bujinkan - are they legitimate?

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    Question The Nine Ryu-ha of the Bujinkan - are they legitimate?

    Please dont kill me (or send me to the Bujinkan thread),

    BUT....

    ...does anybody here know anything about the authenticy of the ryu taught in the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I mean anything proving that they were existant before the turn of the century. I mean any Informatoion from outside the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan.
    I trained in the Bujinkan for six years before quitting and this always interested me.
    The names of the ryu supposedly taught in the Bujinkan are
    Togakure ryu, Gyokko ryu, Kukishin (or Kukishinden) ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu, Gyokushin ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu, Gikan ryu, Kumogakure ryu and Koto ryu.

    Thank you all in advance for your patience. (Exept, of course, those who flame me :-))
    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

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    I am by no means an authority, but Kukishin-ryu is real as far as I know. But in my VERY limited experience of it, it is much, much different than what Hatsumi does.

    Keep looking, and keep us posted as to your findings.

    CKohalyk

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    Both Kukishin and Takagi Yoshin ryu are well known. It is possible that some of what we call Togakure-ryu comes from a Kukishin related scroll (Amatsu Tatara hibumi) called ryusen no maki.

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    Originally posted by Joachim

    ...does anybody here know anything about the authenticy of the ryu taught in the Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. I mean anything proving that they were existant before the turn of the century. I mean any Informatoion from outside the Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinenkan.
    I trained in the Bujinkan for six years before quitting and this always interested me.
    The names of the ryu supposedly taught in the Bujinkan are
    Togakure ryu, Gyokko ryu, Kukishin (or Kukishinden) ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu, Gyokushin ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu, Gikan ryu, Kumogakure ryu and Koto ryu.
    Kukishin-ry and Takagi Yshin-ry are well recorded ryha and both can be verified before 1900. Also there are many branchs of both these ryha. About 10 for Kukishin-ry and about 5 for Takagi-ry.

    Here are some of the variants and branches and who heads them!

    Well start with Kukishin-ry

    Kukishin-ry (mainline) - Kuki Munetaka (the incumbent Ske)
    Kukishinden Happ Bikenjutsu - Hatsumi Masaaki
    Kukishinden Tenshin Hyh - Shihanke Takatsuka Eichoku Michitaka
    Minaki-den Kukishin-ry Bjutsu - Tanaka Fumon
    Sden Kukamishin-ry - Tanaka Fumon
    Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyh - Tanaka Fumon
    Tenshin Hyh Kukamishin-ry - Tanemura Sht
    Hontai Kukishin-ry Bjutsu - Tanemura Sht
    Shinden Kit-ry Bjutsu - Tanemura Sht
    Hontai Kijin Chsui-ry Kukishinden Dakentaijutsu - Kobayashi Masao's son

    There might be some more Kukishin-ry branches, but I can't remember of the top of my head.
    Amatsu Tatara is held by many of the above Headmasters in some form.

    Here is 2 sites on Kukishin-ry outside the Takamatsu-den:
    http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/index_e.html
    http://www4.justnet.ne.jp/~s.kenniti/Fkai/fkaiA.html

    Onto Takagi-ry

    Takagi-ry/Kakuno Takagi-ry Jjutsu - Kusuhara Takano
    Takagi Yshin-ry/Hontai Takagi Yshin-ry Jjutsu - Kaminaga Shigemi
    Hontai Takagi Yshin-ry Jtaijutsu - Hatsumi Masaaki
    Hontai Yshin Takagi-ry Jjutsu - Tanemura Sht
    Hontai Yshin-ry Jjutsu - Inouye Tsuyoshi Munetoshi

    Inouye Ske has done extensive research, even finding the founders grave.

    Here is a website on Hontai Yshin-ry:
    http://www.geocities.co.jp/Colosseum/8136/

    Shinden Fud-ry is well recorded too, but a lot of the info I have and have seen isn't fully translated, there are 3 branchs of this ryha too!

    Kot-ry has a lot of info too, but nowhere near the above ryha.

    Seems that Gyokko-ry, Togakure-ry, Kot-ry, Kumogakure-ry and Gyokushin-ry have to be verified before Takamatsu sensei's existence. So far all that is known, looks good, but we need more sources to confirm them.

    Anyway, hope this helps!?

    Enjoy the links!
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

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    Default New Problem

    First and foremost: Thank you all for your replies.

    But this still leaves me with some doubts, because your posts do not really answer my questions.
    To say that one ryu taght in the Bujinkan is real because its Soke's name is Hatsumi is not very helpful.
    To list Tanemura as another Soke of one of these ryu, again, does not help very much (in light of his claims about Amatsu Tatara
    and Hakuun ryu). All the other listed ryuha seem to have close ties to the Takamatsuden too.

    But your posts helped me in clarifying the problem. What kind of proof can there be?

    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

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    Default Re: New Problem

    Originally posted by Joachim
    First and foremost: Thank you all for your replies.

    But this still leaves me with some doubts, because your posts do not really answer my questions.
    To say that one ryu taght in the Bujinkan is real because its Soke's name is Hatsumi is not very helpful.
    To list Tanemura as another Soke of one of these ryu, again, does not help very much (in light of his claims about Amatsu Tatara
    and Hakuun ryu). All the other listed ryuha seem to have close ties to the Takamatsuden too.

    But your posts helped me in clarifying the problem. What kind of proof can there be?

    Go read the 3 links I posted, some of the ryha mentioned are not even connected to Takamatsu-den. Takagi-ry for example, Hontai Yshin-ry. And some of the various Kuki arts, Minaki-den Kukishin-ry Bjutsu, Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyh, Sden Kukamishin-ry.

    There are some densho, makimono, menkyo and letters I believe in the possession of these Kakuno-den ryha that are from Ishitani sensei directly. You can ask Tood S. or Daniel Lee about that as they know much more then me on the subject.
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

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    Hi there. Okay I know exactly how you feel about the Hatsumi claims. I was there myself and I want to share what little info I have on the subject. And don't worry, If this doesn't cause some flaming, nothing will. I can only give hard facts about the kukishin ryu but I will state a general fact that many people have over looked on this topic. First off, many people believe that Hatsumi is a Soke of 9 ninjutsu ryu. This is a mistake. Hatsumi has never claimed this in his life. Though he does claim to be a ninjutsu teacher only 3 of his schools are ninjutsu schools and of those 3 only one has been taught. I personaly feel that this is because none of the actual teachniques survived and the ryu exist only as consepts now, but this is purely my opinion. Before I go on let me add that I am NOT A Bujinkan student.
    I can say that the Kukishin ryu is very much a true Koryu and no this is not because of Hatsumi being the Grand master. It actualy has a very close conection to Hontai Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu. This comes from the two traditions shareing the same Soke for about 8 generations. Though I can not get the scrolls of the two schools and show you where they share these soke, I can tell you that Hasumi has been recognized as the soke of Kukishin Ryu by a Hontai Yoshin Ryu teacher in Germany I believe. I know I have read the statement, I just can't remember on whose web site. I can also say that the Liniage that Hatsumi Gives and the Liniage of Hontai Yoshin Ryu do match up perfectly at this time as they should.
    This relation can also be seen in the schools teachniques. Particularly the Bo Kata. Both of the ryu developed the Bojutsu from the Kukishin Line. The method and consepts are almost identical.
    I would also like to add that the Kukishin Ryu is NOT a ninjutsu school.
    As for Takagiyoshin Ryu. I am afraid that I know very little. I would asume that is comes from the sharing of kukishin Ryu and Hontai Yoshin Ryu Grand Masters. but I can not be Certain. I can say that the Techniques of Taka Giyoshin and Hontai Yoshin Ryu are almost identical and I belive they even share the same organization (though I would have to look that uip to be sure).
    As for most of the other ryu, I am afraid I know very little of their history. I have been told by a very reliable source who I won't mention here because I do not wish to misrepresent him that though Togakure Ryu has Kuden that strech back to Daisuke Togakure, the actural Ryu was not written down until Takamatsu himself did which does in a way make it Genbai Budo.
    Well, that's all my information here. before I leave let me ay that this is all from my knowledge and all of the information and mistakes are of my own doing. I am not reprersenting anyone except myself. I hope this helps you out a bit. If you don't mind me asking, are you training in something else now?
    Chris Baker.

  8. #8
    MarkF Guest

    Default Advice

    May I give you some advice, Chris? First, don't announce that you are going to start a flame war. You won't last long. Second, when you do research and want to post "fact" as opinion, you may want to get your research in order. This way, you don't come off as someone who knows exactly nothing, and can only represent himself because he didn't think it important enough to back up opinion with, at the very least, the web pages where you got your information.


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    Originally posted by Shinobi
    >Go read the 3 links I posted, some of the ryha mentioned >are not even connected to Takamatsu-den. Takagi-ry for >example, Hontai Yshin-ry. And some of the various Kuki >arts, Minaki-den Kukishin-ry Bjutsu, Nakatomi Shinden >Tenshin Hyh, Sden Kukamishin-ry.

    OK. I mistated this. What I meant is this: There may be other authentic branches of the ryu outside the Bujinkan, but this does not say anything about the branches INSIDE the Bujinkan. AND it does not say anything about the authenticy of the seven other ryu in the Bujinkan. I was in fact looking for some outside (of the Bujinkan that is) evidence for the autheticy of the Takamatsu-den ryu-ha.
    This was meant by my reply:

    Originally posted by myself
    >To say that one ryu taght in the Bujinkan is real because >its Soke's name is Hatsumi is not very helpful.

    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

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    Default Re: Re: New Problem

    Sorry, got the quotes all wrong on the first try:

    Originally posted by Shinobi
    Go read the 3 links I posted, some of the ryha mentioned are not even connected to Takamatsu-den. Takagi-ry for example, Hontai Yshin-ry. And some of the various Kuki arts, Minaki-den Kukishin-ry Bjutsu, Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyh, Sden Kukamishin-ry.
    OK. I mistated this. What I meant is this: There may be other authentic branches of the ryu outside the Bujinkan, but this does not say anything about the branches INSIDE the Bujinkan. AND it does not say anything about the authenticy of the seven other ryu in the Bujinkan. I was in fact looking for some outside (of the Bujinkan that is) evidence for the autheticy of the Takamatsu-den ryu-ha.
    This was meant by my reply:

    Originally posted by myself
    To say that one ryu taght in the Bujinkan is real because its Soke's name is Hatsumi is not very helpful.
    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

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    Joachim,

    Dr Hatsumi received beginning of the year the Shakai Bunka Korosho (something like the Japanese cultural distinguish award). It was given to him by the Emporer of Japan, for his contribution and work for the Martial Arts in Japanese Culture (Ninpo included, he was recognized as the only living grandmaster of Ninpo traditions). He was only the 92nd person in the last 50 years to receive this award.

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    Originally posted by Mark Brecht
    :smokin: Brauchen Sie noch mehr Beweise???
    Ja. Because this isn't
    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

  13. #13
    Tetsutaka Guest

    Default Re: No Problem

    Originally posted by Joachim
    To list Tanemura as another Soke of one of these ryu, again, does not help very much (in light of his claims about Amatsu Tatara and Hakuun ryu).
    The issue about Hakuun ryu has been explained by Michael Coleman in another thread in this forum.

    http://204.95.207.136/vbulletin/show...p?threadid=907

    As with most anything of this ilk, you can believe what you want.

    As far as Amatsu Tatara is concerned, I believe that was passed on to him either by Sato Kinbei or Fumio Akimoto. Here is a quote from the Kuki family site:

    http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/impact_e.htm
    The techniques of Takagiyoshin Ryu were passed on to Sato Kinbei in Tokyo from Takamatsu Chosui, and now Tanemura Shoto instructs them in Tajima, Matsubushi cho, Kita Katsu gun, Saitama prefecture.
    It is my understanding that those who received grandmastership also received the Amatsu Tatara teachings. There is also an interesting connection made by the Kuki family to the Amatsu Tatara in their site:

    http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/current_e.htm
    We have been reproducing the original text of Amatsutatara Hibun Kaidokuhen by Takamatsu Chosui; it was unfortunate that the undertaking was interrupted by the Hanshin earthquake for a while.
    So it would seem that the Amatsu Tatara is intertwined with the Kuki family arts inasmuch as the Takagi Yoshin lineage.

    Anyone care to comment or correct me on this?

    [Edited by Tetsutaka on 08-29-2000 at 08:45 AM]

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    Angry

    Hm, there seems to be evidence enough, that the Emporer of Japan, believes in the authenticity of Dr. Hatsumi`s lineage...

    If this is not good enough for YOU than i dunno what i can say...

    In any case i am not aware of any other Japanese Martial Art, which attracts so many professional modern day warriors (Security, LE, Intelligence or Military), as the Bujinkan does. There was also a while ago an article in the Japan Times, which mentioned some of the organiztions who send their people here to train. CIA,FBI, SF, Scotland Yard, Mossad, etc...

    Hey, how about coming into the chat room, i am there right now...

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  15. #15
    Tetsutaka Guest

    Lightbulb I'll just keep it simple...

    Originally posted by Mark Brecht
    Hm, there seems to be evidence enough, that the Emporer of Japan, believes in the authenticity of Dr. Hatsumi`s lineage...
    I think Eric Weil pointed out [in a different thread] that there are several lineages that "parallel" each other that were passed on to different people. I'm not concerned about that. Whether or not the Emperor recognized someone as the ONLY one of any martial genre is irrelevent, at least for the purposes of this conversation.

    John Lindsey also stated that it is possible that the Togakure ryu teachings may actually stem form the Amatsu Tatara Hibumi. I personally have no problem with that.

    Everybody else can "itch and scratch" with those details. I have more "fundamental" work to do.

    [Edited by Tetsutaka on 08-29-2000 at 09:28 AM]

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