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Thread: The Nine Ryu-ha of the Bujinkan - are they legitimate?

  1. #16
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    Default sorry just lazy.

    Mark,
    First off my name really is Chris. Full name, Christopher John Baker.
    Second, I'm afraid I'm just a bit lazy and sice I didn't remember the web sites off hand as I was writing the post I didn't bother including them. All the information I used in relation to Kukishin Ryu can be found on the Hontai Yoshin Ryu links at www@koryu.com and you can look them up there.The ideas of Kumogakure and yokkoshin ryu were, as I stated in my post completely my opinion and had nothing to do with any web site anywhere. This is also true of what I said about Takegiyoshin ryu, which was also clearly stated in my post. The information about Hatsumi teaching only 3 ninjutsu schools and the rest being simple Koryu Bujutsu is simple fact and can be found anywhere.
    As for my anouncing a flame war, that was the farhtest thing I wanted to do. I just had seen a similer thread on the Bujinkan forum which turned into a flame war very fast and and I jut felt it was a matter of time before this did as well.
    I hope I've cleared up any misunder standing that I my have caused by not being clear. I would like to leave by saying that I never said that Hatsumi was not telling the truth and I don't believe that either. I think he is a wonderful martial artist, I just don't choose to study under him. If I can help any more, let me know.
    Chris Baker.

  2. #17
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    Unhappy

    Originally posted by Mark Brecht
    Hm, there seems to be evidence enough, that the Emporer of Japan, believes in the authenticity of Dr. Hatsumi`s lineage...
    If this is not good enough for YOU than i dunno what i can say...
    There can be all kinds of motivations for the Tenno to do that. I'm not a politician and not the Emperor of Japan. I don't know why he did it. That's my POINT.
    Some historical proof would be nice. I'm interested in the HISTORICAL aspect of the Bujinkan, not if the things the Bujinkan TEACHES are real or not. BTW: In my opinnion, they are. So why are you people so worked up about this?


    Originally posted by Mark Brecht
    In any case i am not aware of any other Japanese Martial Art, which attracts so many professional modern day warriors (Security, LE, Intelligence or Military), as the Bujinkan does. There was also a while ago an article in the Japan Times, which mentioned some of the organiztions who send their people here to train. CIA,FBI, SF, Scotland Yard, Mossad, etc...
    Does that say anything about the lineage and its authenticy?

    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

  3. #18
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    Talking

    :smokin:[b] I think it does,

    nearly 900 years in the making...

    so you should expect an realistic, practical and effective Warrior tradition...[b]
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  4. #19
    Richard A Tolson Guest

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    Mark,
    900 YEARS!!!!! None of the Koryu go back that far. Neither does the Ryu system, nor the Shogunate (who, BTW, popularized the use of spies). Be careful with the hyperbolic statements. Too many people take them seriously.

  5. #20
    MarkF Guest

    Default Excuse me

    Mr. Baker,
    Please excuse me for assuming it would be OK to use your first name in addressing you. Also, I know the site well, and have read most of what is said concerning the legitimacy of Hatsumi's ninjutsu.

    I wasn't disagreeing, just passing on some advice which was given to me at one time, and that was all that was meant. I apologize for posting it in a curt manner. This is certainly not my area of expertise (judo is), and to this day, I am caught making statements without listing my backup for giving an opinion, or proof citing research.

    I know the folks by way of the net at Koryu.com, so if you had said "according to John and Jane Do, of koryu.com" and gave the webpage or book in which you were refering, as you did here, I certainly wouldn't have said a word. Even if I didn't believe it or didn't believe the source, this not being my area, I certainly would not go on record saying anything about it. Again, it was only meant in the context of not having some source to back up your facts.



  6. #21
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    Default A few thoughts

    Let me add a few of my thoughts without actually trying to answer the question itself...

    The huntingskills have been fostered by individuals and groups since the dawn of human history. If this fits the definition of ninjutsu *and* the definition of *Hatsumi's* ninjutsu, we can expect it to be as old as Adam and Eve.
    However it would definitly *not* be Japanese in origin, but rather African...

    If the definition is: Japanese, but not related to the first actual use of the term, but rather to the use of stealthskills, it would be expected logically (but not tracable) to be as old as the first Japanese communities.

    If it is defined as organized in ryuha, it can't be older than the ryuha system itself, as Richard mentioned, can it?

    If we want to trace it to the first usage of the term "ninjutsu", I really do not know how old that would make the art. Perhaps 16'th or 17'th century?

    If we want to PROVE a specific tradition to be as old as 400 years, it must have left *significant* traces from that period. Then it would be up to researchers to validate those traces, with whatever result / outcome.

    It's all pretty much up to definitions and existing evidence, as viewed by researchers and historians. Not that many ryuha can prove to be as old as they claim. Some can, but I doubt that goes for Hatsumi's supposed 900 years old traditions. But if they can't be proven, they can't be disproven either? Important to some, unimportant to others.
    Interesting in any case.

    The founders secret, isn't it?

    Regards,
    Ulf Undmark

  7. #22
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    Default Nijutsu questions

    Ok. Since this discussion has taken a slightly different route than I imagined, I'd like to post some questions about ninjutsu and its history, that bugged me during my training in the Bujinkan (six years).

    1. Why is ninjutsu (the art of stealth, assasination and spying) organized into ryuha at all? Wouldn't such visible and official organizations be shut down by the authorities, at least in the time of the Tokugawa police-state?
    BTW: I know, some in the Bujinkan might say that Hatsumi said that ninjutsu isn't the art of spying or assassination, but an art to preserve peace and freedom. The methods (stealth, poison, weapons, which double as entrance tools, etc.) are the same, aren't they?

    2. Why are there sword techniques in the Togakure ryu? Did the Togakure ryu only train Ninja from Samurai descent? Wouldn't it be preferable for peasants (ninja) to train in weapons which are either not as visible or weapons for the possession of which you wouldn't get executed on the spot?


    And a question on a almost completely unrelated point:

    3. Is Hatsumi soke of a) KukishinDEN ryu Happo Hikenjutsu (stated in almost all of his books), b) Kukishin ryu (Stickfighting Book by Hatsumi), c)Kukishin ryu Taijutsu (stated on the Bujinkan dan certificates) or d) all of them?

    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

  8. #23
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    Default History...

    Most traditional Japanese arts were organized in ryuha and as these (ninjutsu)were quite common principles in warfare they were organized for the same reason and in the same way as other similar arts. The only reason to shut such a ryuha (that would contain ninjutsu) down, would be that there were not much use for that knowledge during the peace. During war, most warriors would use these principles at some instances, orginating from systemized traditions or from experience or plain common sense.

    During the first 500 years of samurai history, any peasant could become a samurai if he wished. Also, a ryuha could decide if, or if not, to teach non-warriors. Katori shinto ryu has always been open to everybody, including peasants and they taught ninjutsu.

    Another point is that, most likely, the majority of the warriors were not taught martial arts in organized traditions, but from experience and from friends. Ryuha training, I guess, was a possibility for the lucky few.
    Probably, not many farmers had such an opportunity at all. And probably, ninjutsu would not have been a first choise.

    My guess is that most of those skilled in stealth, earned their skill from experience...not organized training.

    As far as weapons training in Bujinkan or other aspects of their organization...I'm not qualified at all to answer.

    Regards,
    Ulf Undmark

  9. #24
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    Default

    Hello,

    I just wanted to make a brief observation on this thread, since nobody moderates the koryu forum currently:

    Someone asked for help with basically historical research in regards to the authenticity of the ryu-ha taught in the Bujinkan.

    So far, no one has come forth with any documentation or reasonable resources or references. Just "Hatsumi said so", "it is in all of Hatsumi's books", "the Emperor gave him an award" and a few web sites that also have unsubstantiated information. (I still don't know what qualifies the Emperor to judge koryu exponents, but it is a cool credential to receive anyway I guess)

    I don't mean to sound harsh, and I'm not implying anything for or against the arts taught in the Bujinkan or Hatsumi Sensei.

    I'm simply pointing out that this whole thread has turned into an unorganized series of opinions and heresay, that will probably turn into a flame war soon if left on it's present course.

    Unless someone on the Koryu forum is willing to assist with any tangible research, I'd personally suggest taking discussions of this nature back to the Ninpo forum.

    For example, maybe someone could start with the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten? I'm sure some, if not most of the ryu-ha are listed in there. I know Togakure ryu is. I also have heard that the author was friendly with Takamatsu Sensei, and put an interesting bit in the jiten about the origin of modern day Ninjutsu! I don't have access to my copy right now, nor the time to translate it or I'd volunteer to help myself.

    Any takers?

    I hope no one minds me offering an outside point of view, but this thread in it's current state really does not belong here.

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  10. #25
    jmharris Guest

    Default

    I have my raincoat on and ready for all the rotten fruits and vegetables that are about to be thrown. Let me add, as expected on this board!!!

    The question of the Bujinkan authenticity was ask by the late Donn Dager, from what I have been told (albeit 3rd party) he was not pleased with the research he found. I will leave it as that.

    J. Harris


  11. #26
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    Thumbs down

    Originally posted by jmharris
    from what I have been told (albeit 3rd party)
    More grapevine crap

    If you don't have the facts straight, don't reply. Arigatô!
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  12. #27
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    Default

    Originally posted by Shinobi
    Originally posted by jmharris
    from what I have been told (albeit 3rd party)
    More grapevine crap
    If you don't have the facts straight, don't reply. Arigatô!
    I think, he was reffering to this article at koryubooks:
    http://koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html


    A friend told me about the above article a few days ago. I found it to be very enlightening. Whether you believe the statements or not is (of course) your choice.
    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

  13. #28
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    Default

    Mark,
    Please don't "Mr Baker" me, Chris will be just fine. I just thought that you believed I wasn't using my real name because you put "Chris" in Quote marks. I may not be the greatest person in the world but I will stand and be counted when I have something to say.

    EVERYONE ELSE
    On a completely differant note, I have to agree with some of the other coments said. This tread has wondered way off course. The only thing being asked was the Historical background of the Ryu of Hatsumi's Bujinkan. And I might add that Joachem was wanting information from OUTSIDE of the whole ninjutsu craze. If you want to support Hatsumi, do so with hard evidnce, such as the Begei Ryuha Daijitan or with historical fact.
    We could all learn a lot here. Let's try and grow.
    Chris BAker.

  14. #29
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    Default

    Originally posted by Just some guy
    If you want to support Hatsumi, do so with hard evidnce, such as the Begei Ryuha Daijitan or with historical fact.
    We could all learn a lot here. Let's try and grow.
    Chris BAker.
    Hi Chris,

    Actually, I would not use the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten to gain any hard evidence or use it as fact. It is a dictionary. And most historians wouldn't use it as a primary source. Maybe for a secondary source. It also has many mistakes. And just to let everyone know, at least in the 78 edition, every ryuha that Hatsumi Sensei has, lists him as soke of each of his schools.

    I don't think it is Hatsumi Sensei fault that people don't believe him. It was Takamatsu Sensei who gave the ryuha to Hatsumi Sensei. So, basically he has faith in what his teacher (Takamatsu Sensei) told/gave him.

    And really, the problem is finding Toda Shinryuken Sensei's records. But, I have heard that they might have found something on him.

    The ryuha (with the exception of Gikan Ryu) that he received from Ishitani (Ishiya) Sensei can be verified. And he was asked by Kuki Takaharu to teach Kukishin Ryu at his organization (Shobukyoku) back in 1919. I don't think Kuki Takaharu would have let him taught if he didn't have his "paper work" in order.

    As for Hatsumi Sensei's Kuki related ryuha, the school's official name is Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu.
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  15. #30
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    Talking ever seen Bloodsport...

    Originally posted by Richard A Tolson
    Mark,
    900 YEARS!!!!! None of the Koryu go back that far. Neither does the Ryu system, nor the Shogunate (who, BTW, popularized the use of spies). Be careful with the hyperbolic statements. Too many people take them seriously.
    Mr. Tolson,

    The teachings and methods of various traditions started and developed far before they were considered a ryuha (formalized and named...)...

    Hm, taking things serious is a good point. Looking at your claims regarding "Arashi ryu", people might confuse it with parts of the movie Bloodsport (where the kid learns the secret family traditions from his Japanese teacher...). What was the name of van Damme`s Sensei in there again? T.. T.. T... Gee, i forgot. Can you help me out here???
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