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Thread: The Nine Ryu-ha of the Bujinkan - are they legitimate?

  1. #376
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    Quote Originally Posted by niten ninja
    Not sure you can condition yourself for sword strikes.
    Not sure when I'll be in my next sword duel!!!

    Damn these arguments are stupid!!!!

  2. #377
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    Not really a arguement just an observation.
    Michael Kelly

    Ironically neither a Niten Ichi practitioner or in fact a ninja.

  3. #378
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Franco
    Out of respect for those peoples privacy, I cannot give you a name, but they have seen some of the "Densho" and I trust thier word.

    I have never done any sparring while training with Hatsumi Sensei or any of the Shihan.
    At least one of the Shihan in Japan does randori as a part of class. I know because he kicked my behind. There are densho and there's also kuden which goes along with some of the schools. Couple of shihan that I've trained with independently here in Europe have had the same kuden (which means that they're either talking to each other.... likely.... or getting it from Japan.... also likely).

    J. Vlach

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    I've done randori in Japan with Shihan as well.
    Stephen Kovalcik

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    There are densho and there's also kuden which goes along with some of the schools.
    Actual there is a scroll which (from what I understand) was created by Takamatsu Sensei called the "Tora No Maki" which is "shinken gata"

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Franco
    Actual there is a scroll which (from what I understand) was created by Takamatsu Sensei called the "Tora No Maki" which is "shinken gata"
    You seem to be incoherent in your replies, please stay on topic and try not to quote from memory as your making lots of mistakes and making the BJK look bad.

    "Tora-no-maki" is not created by Takamatsu-sensei. The Tora-no-maki Shinken-gata is from Ichiyanagi Oribe Kazuma who taught it too Ishitani Matsutarô who then taught it to Takamatsu-sensei. It’s supposedly based on Kuki/Chôsui daken and Shinden Fudô-ryû as Ichiyanagi traveled around and picked those two as his favorite styles and combined them.

    Also please try to reply with only facts and not speculations as this thread is asking "opinions on maasaki hatsumi as koryu?" and is important to some of us. Replying with stuff like "Takamatsu created it" only detracts from the topic and spreads false information. Please read "Message from Soke (1)" #2 here http://www001.upp.so-net.ne.jp/bujinkan/ for guidelines/protocol when posting/replying on the internet about the Bujinkan arts.

    Thanks
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  7. #382
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Franco
    For one, if you read my post regarding the Tora No Maki I stated that this is from what I understood. Anything that I have said has been to the best of my knowledege and it has been in regards to what I have been told.
    Forget what I said before about making the BJK look bad, I didn't know you were a JNK member and since that’s the case, you might want to buy this http://www.jinenkan.com/shopping/sho...en+Gata+Videos
    The site used to say this:

    "The exact time is unclear, but at some point a Budoka (martial artist) named Ichiyanagi Kazuma systematized the Bugei Juhappan (18 subjects of martial study) into these 9 categories: Gunryaku (military strategy), Jinei (Encampment), Kenpo (swordsmanship), Sojutsu (spear-fighting), Tenmon/Chimon (“study of the sky and earth”; weather-watching and geography), Bojutsu (stick-fighting), Naginatajutsu (halberd-fighting), Chikujo (building fortifications), and Jutaijutsu (unarmed fighting).

    This “Tora-no-Maki” is a collection of the Shinken-Gata of Jutaijutsu. This was then taught by Takamatsu-Sensei to Hatsumi-Sensei, then to us. I practiced the severe techniques of this “Tora-no-Maki” for several years.

    The contents, as you will see by watching these tapes, consist of Dakentaijutsu and Jutaijutsu. The skills recorded here include Kihon-Gata (fundamentals), Kihon Suwari-Gata (fundamental seated techniques), 12 Shodan (or Shoden), 12 Nidan (or Chuden), 8 Sandan (or Okuden), 12 Yondan (or Sabaki-Gata), and 12 Godan (or Kaiden-Gata); 44 techniques in all.

    The techniques themselves are mostly similar to Kukishin-ryu Dakentaijutsu, but the details are somewhat different.

    --Unsui"
    The information was up on your kanchô's website and has been around the internet for some time, even back on the old ninpô-L days. Ichiyanagi started it and is a mix of Kuki daken and SFR, or so the history says.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Franco
    Note from George Kohler:removed by request of original poster.
    I chimed in a long time ago in this long dragged out thread. I tried to be polite to you and if you see it as "chastised" that wasn't my intention. But since you have asked me to kiss your bum I wont reply or converse with you anymore since I don't think Manaka-sensei would be too happy with your insults/behavior.

    I hope you or someone else can contribute in a polite way on whether they think Hatsumi-sensei's arts are koryû or not and stay on topic. His teaching methods are un-orthodox and not the norm for koryû but his arts are in my opinion.

    thanks
    Last edited by George Kohler; 28th December 2005 at 12:52. Reason: original poster wanted to remove his offending post
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisMoon
    What exactly do you mean by things are more "live". Are other styles and arts not as live?
    I should have said "live" as in "changing." Many koryu will have precise movements and kata which are handed down unchanged. That's good, it represents tradition.

    On the other hand, Bujinkan more readily adapts and adopts things. Such as movement X from Y ryu that is normally done without weapons is henka'd a bit to include kunai, a mobile phone or a gun. The same things could be done with koryu material, but it's not something which I see on widespread basis by other schools.

    That's not to say that koryu are not effective anymore or that they are museum pieces. They're not. What I am saying is that the method of trasmission and classes are different, and that sets things apart. To me, that means that, to an extent, Bujinkan is simply not koryu.

    Not that it makes much difference anyway. I'd think I'd probably get bored in koryu pretty quickly but that's just because it ain't my scene (sneaking around in the swampest places and flipping out is).

    J. Vlach

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    Quote Originally Posted by El Guapo-san
    I should have said "live" as in "changing." Many koryu will have precise movements and kata which are handed down unchanged. That's good, it represents tradition.



    J. Vlach
    Says who and are they stating that as fact?

    An excerpt from Old School by Ellis Amdur in regards to his own teacher:

    In keeping with Araki-ryu's tradition, he led his students in a ruthless gleaning and honing of the forms handed down from all of these traditions, keeping only those which proved strongest in a variety of experiments, taryu shiai (controlled, agreed-upon matches with men from other martial traditions) and the study of original records to strive to discern the intentions of the creators of the original forms.

    ...

    The syncretic Araki-ryu could be termed koryu bujutsu (a living traditon flowing from the past)."
    In Koryu Bujutsu: Classical Warrior Traditions of Japan, Mr. Amdur writes:

    "The line of Araki-ryu that I practiced was true to its own definition of koryu. Even the oldest kata (forms) were ruthlessly examined with an attempt to make them more effective while still retaining the essential character of the school. In addition, new forms and freestyle practice were developed for modern day self-defense, street fighting or combat with improvised weapons. This included practice in methods of unarmed kakuriki (grappling) and kempo (striking with hands and feet). Such innovation was not something particular to this generation. Araki-ryu has always adjusted and adpated to local conditions in each generation and location that it alighted, in keeping with its defining phrase, "Ichi koku, ichi den: In each country/location, one tradition." My instructor used to say, "If you return to America and simply teach what I taught you, I will consider you a failure. America is different - you will have to teach Amdur-ryu. Call it Araki-ryu if you like, but it will have to be developed so it suits you, and suits your country."
    Careful about making broad statements about other schools or traditions. Especially if you have no experience with them.
    Christopher Moon

  10. #385
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    In general, in general. We're talking about one organization (Booj) and Koryu (many many organizations). Of course there will be exceptions to the stereotype.

    J. Vlach

  11. #386
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinobi
    "Tora-no-maki" is not created by Takamatsu-sensei. The Tora-no-maki Shinken-gata is from Ichiyanagi Oribe Kazuma who taught it too Ishitani Matsutarô who then taught it to Takamatsu-sensei. It’s supposedly based on Kuki/Chôsui daken and Shinden Fudô-ryû as Ichiyanagi traveled around and picked those two as his favorite styles and combined them.
    I stand corrected. Thanks for the info!

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    sorry to bump an oldish thread.

    I believe what Mr. Lindsey was talking about some information Takamatsu sensei transfered from ryusen no maki into the togakure ryu teachings he received. From my limited understanding of that situation, the Togakure ryu Takamatsu sensei received was not quite the same as we practice it today; it was what you might say incomplete, some of the teachings had been lost. According to Tanemura soke, it's probable that Takamatsu researched teachings he knew to be (or felt to be) part of the ancient and full Togakure ryu, and as soke, re-added them to the ryu.

    I cannot verify any of this information personally but it is in the magazine Amatsu Tatara published by Genbukan, but I have no reason to doubt its authenticity.
    Cory Burke
    ゴゴゴ!

  13. #388
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    Default Takamatsu's Ryu

    I know there is controversy and debate about Takamatsu's 9 schools that developed into the Bujinkan but wasnt he a legit instructor of Kukishin Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu? As far as I can tell arent those two schools at least considered authentic?
    Gary Ferrill

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    nevermind, I found what I was looking for.
    Gary Ferrill

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    Default opinions on maasaki hatsumi as koryu?

    Regarding
    Japanese:
    "Hatsumi-wa ninja-gokko o yatteiru."

    English:
    "Hatsumi is the guy who plays ninja."
    I believe that "Hatsumi is the guy who plays ninja." is both truth and not in a same way. A lot of members of Bujinkan (but not all), are guys how are playing Ninjas. That is what is giving a Bujinkan a bad name and off course as a head of Bujinkan is to be placed ahead of “playing ninja”.
    One example of playing ninjas…..Not long ago I stumbled on one out of many similar “Bujinkan webpage”.

    http://www.bujinkan-montenegro.co.cc...&var1=slike01/



    Last edited by BudoM; 23rd November 2011 at 11:22. Reason: adding link

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