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Thread: The Nine Ryu-ha of the Bujinkan - are they legitimate?

  1. #31
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    Talking Re: ever seen Bloodsport...

    Originally posted by Mark Brecht
    The teachings and methods of various traditions started and developed far before they were considered a ryuha (formalized and named...)...
    [/B]

    Very true, people rant and rave that Tenshin Shoden Katori Shintô-ryû is thee oldest proveable ryûha. But most forget about where and what ryûha influenced it. So this theory of ryûha only being from 1500ish onward is hogwash! Katori Shintô-ryû being founded in 1447 and its influnces earlier then that, one would think............ but I guess not. Kukishin-ryû is very well documented and its from the 1300's so................


    Looking at your claims regarding "Arashi ryu"
    Doah :smokin:
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  2. #32
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    Default Old ryuha.

    I believe it is said that Katori shinto ryu is the oldest *proven* ryuha, not the ryuha that *claims* to be the oldest.

    There are also legends about Okuyama Nen Ami Jion, said to have founded the Nen ryu around 1368 (according to records from the Higuchi family) and the Chujo family is said to have taught martial arts in Kamakura since the 13'th century. According to legend, the Chujo ryu is supposed to have been formalized or revitalized shortly after Nen ryu.

    I guess there just doesn't exist much to prove such legends.
    Also the ryuha system were barely developed, wich ofcourse doesn't mean that organized training wasn't carried out.

    Claims are not the same as proof. I believe that the Kashima shinto ryu is well in their 64'th or 65'th soke...counting from way back to guardians of the Kashima jingu (perhaps back to the 7'th century). But still, this ryuha is not really considered to be older than from the early 16'th century. I guess the Japanese Emperor was considered a God (or being decendant from the Gods) until quite recently...but I doubt he could prove those claims... and I don't think as many still believe he is today.

    Regards,
    Ulf Undmark

  3. #33
    Richard A Tolson Guest

    Default

    Mark,
    No logic to back up your statement, so once again you go on the attack. Pathetic!!!
    BTW, I NEVER claimed to have learned a "secret" art, or to have studied with a "secret" instructor. Again, please get your facts straight.
    Another thing, go back and read your last 20 posts (besides the ones where you are trying to sell something). Notice a pattern? Most are attacks on others.
    Now go back and read my last 20 points. Golly gee whiz, most deal with ideas and are informational. And I am not even a moderator here!

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Old ryuha.

    Originally posted by Undmark, Ulf
    I believe it is said that Katori shinto ryu is the oldest *proven* ryuha, not the ryuha that *claims* to be the oldest.
    Thats what I meant, its "proven" to be the oldest!
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Re: Old ryuha.

    Originally posted by Shinobi
    Originally posted by Undmark, Ulf
    I believe it is said that Katori shinto ryu is the oldest *proven* ryuha, not the ryuha that *claims* to be the oldest.
    Thats what I meant, its "proven" to be the oldest!
    Hi Eric,

    I think you were close enough. "...Tenshin Shoden Katori Shintô-ryû is thee oldest proveable ryûha..."
    George Kohler

    Genbukan Kusakage dojo
    Dojo-cho

  6. #36
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    Talking Re: Re: Re: Old ryuha.

    Originally posted by George Kohler
    I think you were close enough. "...Tenshin Shoden Katori Shintô-ryû is thee oldest proveable ryûha..." [/B]
    Arigatô George-san
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  7. #37
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    Default Proven...

    Eric and George,

    Yes, that is true and I think there actually are some legends about Iizasa's teacher as well (including a name of an individual). But I do not know much about that, they are probably mostly legends, and I'm not sure if the extensive records within Shinto ryu mentions any other ryuha around that time. But that, ofcourse, is still being stuck with the idea that training is only organized if it fits the ryuha pattern, which is not true. I believe that one of the first martial arts institutions were formed around the 9'th century. Also, archery has, to some extent, been formalized earlier than the 14'th century.

    So, basically, it's a matter of definitions when speaking of ryuha and organized martial training. And the oldest *proven* doesn't mean *the* oldest, but everything else would on the other hand be not much more than speculations I guess.

    Regards,
    Ulf Undmark

    [Edited by Undmark, Ulf on 09-01-2000 at 02:39 AM]

  8. #38
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    Default Influences...

    Oh, I forgot...many speculate that the influences of those earliest ryuha come (or atleast where inspiration for them) from what has been called Kashima no tachi and Katori no ken...Not really ryuha I guess, and maybe not that martial in their nature, but the legend of Kashima no tachi goes back to the 7'th century at least. This may have inspired the idea of formalizing knowledge and experience that may have come from the efforts of individuals (or possibly earlier ryuha / organized training of some sort...).

    Regards,
    Ulf Undmark

  9. #39
    Don Roley Guest

    Default The original question

    In regards to the original question,
    The versions of Takagi and Kukishin ryus as taught inside the Bujinkan today share a same lineage up to a person named ishitani who taught Takamatsu and another person by the name of Minaki. Today there are two lineages called the Takamatsu-den and the Minaki- den from the respective sources. Both show proof back to the same teacher, and from Ishitani the traditions are well known and documented well before this century.
    In addition, Takamatsu was well known and respected by the Kuki family and is commonly credited with the preservation of many aspects of the art. He could have gained a lot more fame and prestige off of these facts alone, but seemed to avoid a lot of fame when he could.
    As for the Togakure ryu, there is a lot of circumstancial evidence, but very little in the way of solid proof. For example, according to the tradtion in the Togakure ryu, the school was founded by Nishina Daisuke of Togakure village who had to flee to Iga after his lord (Kiso Yoshinaka) was defeated. Independant researcher Koyama Ryutaro found references to Nishina in a document called the Genpeiseisuiki.
    Now, it may be that Takamatsu found this information out himself on his own research in a obscure book and then never made mention of it to anyone, letting it be found by someone much later, but it seems a little strange to sugest that. There are also a lot of other similar, circumstancial facts that basically fit the catagory of things that Takamatsu really should not have known, but did, unless he was telling the truth about his experiences. I would reccomend Koyama's books (in Japanese) "Kore Wa Ninjutsu Da" and "Shinsetsu, Nihon Ninja Restuden" for a more detailed explination, but the Ninshina quote is also mentioned in the prefaces to Hatsumi's Hanbojutsu book.
    The problem is that Takamatsu does not seemed to have held on to many documents like this. Between the time he was said to have been taught, and the time he started teaching the current head, there was almost 50 years, two world wars, several changes of location and the repeated fire bombing of his native city of Kobe. The only photograph I am aware of him from before the war comes not from his records, but from the Iwai family collection. If you want definate proof, you have to rely on the pysical evidence from sources like the Kuki and Iwai families to back up what he says about being part of the Takagi and Kuki tradtions. And a lot of his claims are still being looked into by some people, but not very frantically since a lot of the Japanese just do not seem to care.
    I once thought about writing a long article or maybe even a book about the subject of ninjutsu and the Togakure ryu in more detail, but decided it really wasn't all that important myself.
    Hope I was of help

    Don Roley

  10. #40
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    Default Closing this thread?

    Hi everybody!

    I would like to thank all the people who have contributed to this thread so far, whether their replies were directly to my questions or not. All of it was very enlightening.
    This thread has, since the original question, disintegrated into three sepperate discussions about Dr. Hatsumi's schools, ninjutsu's authenticy and the ryuha system in general. Some of my questions didn't belong in this forum either.

    I'm not the forum moderator, but don't you think, we should close this thread down and open new ones in the respective areas?

    Just a thought.
    Joachim Hoss
    Cologne, Germany

    Occam's Razor - A weapon for true martial artists.

  11. #41
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    Default A question for Mr Don Roley in Research forum

    Don, regarding the name, I have a question that is better placed in the research forum. Please visit there.

    Regards,
    Ulf Undmark

  12. #42
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    Post

    Originally posted by Richard A Tolson
    Mark,
    No logic to back up your statement, so once again you go on the attack. Pathetic!!!
    Hm, others saw the logic, you didn`t. Guess that`s YOUR problem than...

    BTW, I NEVER claimed to have learned a "secret" art, or to have studied with a "secret" instructor. Again, please get your facts straight.

    Secret, as in nobody has ever heard of it...

    Another thing, go back and read your last 20 posts (besides the ones where you are trying to sell something). Notice a pattern? Most are attacks on others.

    Yeah, why should i attack myself, that wouldn`t be logic, would it???

    Hm, first you delete and slander me, and now you pick on the biz. I guess, you did not take it to well that i ignored you inquiry. You should have read the notice, in regards to authentic or legitimate arts...


    Now go back and read my last 20 points. Golly gee whiz, most deal with ideas and are informational. And I am not even a moderator here!

    The ones which where taken out for spamming? Or the ones attacking Don`s book?

    Hm, i guess you come here, as it is too boring "somewhere" else...

    BTW, i am still looking to see a post somewhere were you praised ebudo???

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  13. #43
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    Default Re: Just clarifying...

    Originally posted by Jeff Mueller
    Everyone keeps saying that Hatsumi Sensei recieved KukishinDEN Ryu HappoHikenjutsu from Takamatsu. Once more, I would like to point out that the Menkyo Hatsumi Sensei has on his wall, (available for all to see on the 1993 Daikomyosai video opening montage) reads as follows:

    Hatsumi Masaaki
    Kaiden Souke Dan Menkyo-su.
    Shouwa Sanjuunana(shichi)nen Sangatsu Juuninichi
    Kukishin-ryuu Bujutsu Souke
    Koudou Senyoukai Shoubuyoku
    Sousai Juusan-i Shishaku Kuki Takaharu
    Shihan Takamatsu Toshitsugu

    Now, why does Sensei call it Kukishinden Ryu HappoHikenjutsu? I am not sure, but please stop making statements about him only having some silly Hatsumi Ha, or KukishinDEN amalgamation Ryu... His Menkyo was signed by Kuki Takaharu and it is for Kukishin Ryu Bujutsu.
    The Bugei Ryûha Daijiten ('78 edition) refers to it as Kukishinden Happô Bikenjutsu, Takatsuka's branch is called Kukishinden Tenshin Hyôhô, and Tanaka Fumon's Nakatomi Shinden Tenshin Hyôhô. When the "DEN" is added, it appears in Kuki related arts there is not "ryû" after the name. Den and Ryû in this sense mean almost the same thing, so Kukishinden Happô Bikenjutsu is the proper way to refer to this tradition of Kukishin-ryû. You can also call it Kukishin-ryû Happô Bikenjutsu, but Kukishinden-ryû is reduntant, reduntant, reduntant........

    But I have heard Hatsumi sensei, Tanemura-san even, refer to it as both. I prefer Kukishinden or Kukishin-ryû. :smokin:
    Eric Weil
    "Kuji first, Taijutsu last"

  14. #44
    everest Guest

    Default opinions on maasaki hatsumi as koryu?

    first the reason i'm posting this here is i would like a wider response then if i posted under a ninpo heading.that being said....

    what's the general opinion of the bujinkan as taught by hatsumi among the koryu practitioners out there?

    i feel like i'm going to be stirring the proverbial pot!

    thanks,
    scott altland
    itten dojo,mechanicsburg,pa.

  15. #45
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    Default

    I would be very surprised if there is a general opinion. I have nothing useful to say about this myself. Good luck getting any opinions at all.




    (That's not to say it's a stupid question. It's one I've wondered too. But I am not sure what people would say apart from diplomacy. This may not be a bad thing.)
    J. Nicolaysen
    -------
    "I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?

    We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.

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