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Thread: The Nine Ryu-ha of the Bujinkan - are they legitimate?

  1. #76
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    Well, Kit, it's just my opinion. These definitions all go back to Draeger and have been refined by his disciples in such places as koryu.com. Whatever one may think of them, they are still the best starting point that I have seen.

    Nothing can ever be perfectly defined. But you gotta start somewhere.

    I think the main thing is verifiability. Taking the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu as an example, while one may think whatever one wants of Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, it is impossible to deny the authenticity of the ryu's documents and their historical provenance. In additon to that, due to the social position occupied by the school, the doings of the school and the activities of its members can be corroborated through third-party historical sources in addition to the writings of members of the ryu such as Yagyu Munenori and Yagyu Jubei. In other words, whatever one's opinions of the ryu itself, no one can really take issue with the FACT of the EXISTENCE of the ryu and the verifiablity of its history.

    In the case of ninjutsu, none of this applies. Indeed, seeing as how ninjutsu was supposed to be secret, I would imagine that the "headmasters" of ninjutsu, if there even was such an institution among ninjas, did their best to hide everything they could about it. This makes it a perfect vehicle for scoundrels and charlatans, since their claims can never be disporoven. All they have to do is wink one eye, put a finger to their lips, and whisper "Shhhh! It's a secret".

    To take another example, as you know, I studied Nagao Ryu Taijutsu when I lived in Kanazawa. My teacher was a student of the legitimate headmaster, Maeda Kogetsu, (whom I later discovered was something of a laughingstock in the koryu world in Japan) but broke with him when his own research (extremely extensive and thorough, BTW) revealed that Maeda was not transmitting the techniques correctly. So he started his own group.

    So, was I studying a legitimate koryu, since I was the student of a renegade?

    Good question.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 16th April 2004 at 02:26.
    Earl Hartman

  2. #77
    Hissho Guest

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    Hmmm, sorta throws a wrench in the whole idea of what "legitimate" actually means, doesn't it?

  3. #78
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    Gentlemen,

    To ninja or not to ninja, that's the question....

    This thread started out with the question if Hatsumi sensei teach koryu or not, and drifted towards a discussion of ninja.

    I have been training in Bujinkan for almost 20 years, and I've never encountered ninja-gokko....

    Strange, isn't it?

    Most of the training I have encountered have been Taijutsu, sword, staffs, yari, naginata etc.

    If you are going to discuss if Hatsumi sensei teach koryu or not, then the discussion maybe should stem from what is actually trained in Bujinkan, and not what has been showed in television shows etc. It's not necessarily the same thing....

    just my .2 cents

    Peter Carlsson
    Malmö Taijutsuklubb - Bujinkan Dojo
    Sweden

  4. #79
    Robert Miller Guest

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    Which Bujinkan ryu-ha are listed in the Bugei Ryu-ha Daijiten , and who is listed as their legitimate inheritor?

  5. #80
    Mekugi Guest

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    Originally posted by Hissho
    Hmmm, sorta throws a wrench in the whole idea of what "legitimate" actually means, doesn't it?
    There is a difference between legitimate and orthodox though, isn't there?

    -Russ

  6. #81
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    Default On Budoseek

    Ireally like Ellis Amdur's post on http://www.budoseek.net in the ninpo forum found here
    Just opened this thread, and I wanted to correct a few small misconceptions.

    Dale, I recall your student - a really fine guy. He did not ask me about "koryu.com." I see a tendency in this thread, and I certainly seen it far more pronounced in others to write about Diane and Meik Skoss' website as if it is a collective organization. It's not an organization at all. It's their business website, and they post a few articles on it - some really good, some less so. I won't speak for Meik and Diane, but my own (mostly) disinterest in the Bujinkan is perhaps the same as theirs - that what you do is not what I do. (And as I will try to establish, I think the feeling from Hatsumi is mutual).

    What your student asked me was what was the viewpoint of orthodox koryu practitioners re Bujinkan, and why was it held.

    Let's preface what follows by saying I'm not going to write anything here about effectiveness, skill or strength. I don't think much is accomplished by fanticizing how strong you are or are not, or how good your sword waza are, compared to x-ryu, sitting at a keyboard.

    What I said was that the Bujinkan (and Genbukan, for that matter) and it's subsidiary practices are not carried out in a manner congruent with that of any other koryu system in Japan. It's method of teaching, ranking, etc. is different. This is not merely a matter of innovation - I have an essay in the third of the Skoss' books regarding innovation, and describe my own role in some significant innovation in two ryu I'm involved in.

    "It's not koryu" in Japanese has two interpretations - the first is rigid and the second is an adjective. For example, Jikishin Kage-ryu naginatajutsu was not admitted to the Kobudo Shinkokai for many years (the criteria have loosened over the last couple of decades) because it was not founded before the Meiji period cut-off. That's an example of the rigid criteria.

    I have presented kata of old ryu that I have had a hand in reviving or recreating, according to the technical parameters of the school in question. No outsider has ever realized that these are not old school kata, because they look and move exactly the same. But were I to present a new kenpo section to my Araki-ryu, using parameters from the hsing-i I"m practicing a lot now, and the muay thai I used to do, even though, as a licensed instructor I'd have the authority to do so, every traditional Japanese looking at it would say, "That's not koryu." The adjective criteria.

    Now, as for Hatsumi and the Bujinkan - the formal criteria. I will assert with some confidence that the Kobudo Shinkokai does not demand that one give one's own makimono to them. My teachers, members, had their own makimono in their own house. But if the lineage of their school were questioned, they would request to see the makimono. The outsider (non-Bujinkan) understanding is that there are no makimono in existence of any of the (9??) Bujinkan ryu which establish a lineage pre-Takamatsu. In other words, there are no scrolls with pre-date him. NOT that the ryu don't exist - but that the lines claimed as going to Takamatsu are not established. Hatsumi may have such scrolls - but they have not been viewed by outsiders who are the "arbitrers" regarding joining the "club."

    As for the "adjectival criteria," I've visited Hatsumi, trained with Terry Dobson, observed Bujinkan and Genbukan training, including formal kata, done some sparring with weapons and empty-handed as well, and speaking personally here as a "traditionalist," it just doesn't look like or feel like koryu - timing, ma-ai, weapon usage, etc. is just different - sometimes subtly, sometimes grossly. To reiterate, I'm not talking about strength! Some of the most legitimate koryu are sterile societies of a few hobbiests who preserve a rote version of kata and couldn't fight their way out of a junior high school schoolyard fight.

    The best way to explain the difference is this. There are classsical music societies that only use period instruments. You get to hear Mozart and Bach the way their own audiences probably did. Then there are classical musicians in modern orchestras, with far more instruments, a piano with a vastly different sound. Still "koryu," but somewhat innovated. Then there are ensembles which use electric violins, add some jazz figure, some coda's with modern dissonences. They would say that the old music is stultified and that they, the innovators have returned to the spirit of the founders (the Sengoku jidai of music, so to speak). The traditionalists would say, "That aint classical." To me, that's the position that Hatsumi is in (he reportedly blends the techniques of the different ryu, for one example), and he obviously can care less about the classisists, or he'd invite them over to his house, show them the makimono going back seven generations, etc., and join their club. But he doesn't - he either doesn't have such records, or he does, but he has nothing to prove to people he feels are stuck in rigid sterile training. This is a man who has stated, per other posters, that he does and knows Katori Shinto-ryu far better than practitioners of the actual ryu (I can't cite this thread's location, but I recall it). I would infer that, to him, an assertion that "We, the Bujinkan, are koryu" means a DROP in status, not a rise. (And this was certainly my impression of him in my meeting with him in 1977 and in a subsequent phone call in 1980 where he refused to let me see a makimono of Araki-ryu that he definitely had, saying, "I don't show my material.")

    In sum, (sorry for the length), why would you guys want to join a club that he clearly feels is beneath him and you?

    with respect

    Ellis Amdur

  7. #82
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    Default uentin

    I'd like to suggest that Quentin Chambers' relationship to Hatsumi sensei deserves consideration though it may not provide much clarity.
    a man who wears fur should never spit on a man who wears suede.

  8. #83
    Hissho Guest

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    Originally posted by Mekugi
    There is a difference between legitimate and orthodox though, isn't there?

    -Russ
    That's probably a better way of casting it.

  9. #84
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    My previous post was in reference to "Stickfighting" which was co-authored by Hatsumi sensei and Mr. Chambers.

    Apologies all around for any confusion.
    a man who wears fur should never spit on a man who wears suede.

  10. #85
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    Default Re: uentin

    Originally posted by pete lohstroh
    I'd like to suggest that Quentin Chambers' relationship to Hatsumi sensei deserves consideration though it may not provide much clarity.
    What consideration would that be? That what Hatsumi does is koryu because Mr. Chambers trained with him for 7 years and co-authored a book with him? Chambers studied with Ueshiba for several years as well.
    Christopher Moon

  11. #86
    Mekugi Guest

    Default Re: Re: uentin

    Originally posted by ChrisMoon
    What consideration would that be? That what Hatsumi does is koryu because Mr. Chambers trained with him for 7 years and co-authored a book with him?
    On this note, I would like to point out that the Kata demonstrated in that book are NOT KORYU KATA. That being said, if anyone doubts their effectiveness they should ask to have it `plied to them and see...

  12. #87
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    Hey cool picture Russ! Thank you for posting that.
    Christopher Moon

  13. #88
    Mekugi Guest

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    Originally posted by ChrisMoon
    Hey cool picture Russ! Thank you for posting that.
    You betcha! The real thanks goes to "Addo" for snapping that pic. Totally awesome.

  14. #89
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    Mr. Moon,
    In response to your query:
    No. I did not suggest that because of the co-authorship koryu status was implicit. I implied that Mr. Chambers would have an worthwhile and informed opinion. It was a discussion point to illustrate the complication of the issue. Reasonable, yes? I have already discussed this with another gentleman by e-mail and have nothing more I care to add except that I think the "Stickfighting" book is good.
    a man who wears fur should never spit on a man who wears suede.

  15. #90
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    I agree I think he would have a worthwhile opinion. I will ask him when I see him a week from tomorrow. I also agree the book is really good. =)
    Christopher Moon

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