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Thread: BJJ - Is it really Jujutsu?

  1. #16
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    From what I understand (and please correct me..) Judo in itself is so diverse, that it may look like a different art to an outsider. - I mean as far as Olympic, Kodokan, or any other group. One may stress groundfighting, one atemi & throws, or a little of each. My point is that some Judo groups may resemble trad. Ju-jutsu. While some trad groups may look more like Judo. Am I even remotely correct?


    Jon Gillespie
    Jon Gillespie

  2. #17
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    Thanks Benjamin for those links. I'll check them out later. If BJJ does have self defence in there, then it ought to be pretty good. All I hear about it though is goundwork groundwork groundwork.

    Rupert Atkinson

  3. #18

    Talking

    BJJ isn't jujutsu at all. It's zhoozhitsu. Just ask any Brazilian BJJ'er.

  4. #19
    Benjamin Peters Guest

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    In the January 2003 edition of Martial Arts Legend's Presents: GRAPPLING, Royce Gracie is interviewed on his thoughts on various topics. One of the topics dicussed (on page 53) is this exact topic. Not having the exact quotation, Royce relays the fact that when people saw mixed martial arts competitions, they flocked to brasilian jiu jitsu classes. However, people only saw the bjj sport side of things and learned that to add to their reportoire.

    Royce then suggests that the reason why people learn martial arts in the first place should never be forgotten (ie self defense). Royce then suggests that the standup component of self defense in bjj is very much important - obviously stressing the methods of gracie bjj standup self defense. Royce seemed to be 'all for' self defense; probably because of his new book covering standup self defense (and others).
    See book here

    It seems to be an area of misconception that bjj only has groundwork. Groundwork is it's uniqueness but standup self defense [similar to american jujutsu (ie George Kirby and Krav maybe?)] is also a part of it (important as Royce Gracie suggests - see above reference). It's kinda like saying that Karate only has punches.
    Last edited by Benjamin Peters; 8th January 2003 at 21:55.

  5. #20
    vadrip Guest

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    The thing with bjj just like judo as that most schools tend to focus on the sport side of it and neglect the self defense training. The newaza of bjj is related to the prewar judo with it's banned submission techniques and the kosen judo techniques, though bjj has a distinct way of fighting judoists and uses different rules much like how the judo based art of sambo is different in the same regard.

    Alot of bjj schools do the vale tudo training, which is training for NHB and MMA which does teach how to fight a grappler and a striker per se though it's still sport related, although it tends to have more usefulness then some more traditional and even modern schools have taught as self defense in the past.

    The thing being most who do those competitions, nowadays are training not only bjj, but wrestling, boxing and muay thai being the primary arts since they quick to learn and get right to the point of fighting so the pure vale tudo bjj training has been replaced so to speak.

    In regards to self defense and martials, I hate when people discuss martial arts is that they always say defenses against multiple attackers as if any traditional art has anything romotely similar to a scenario that could use effectively against a mass attack. Sorry folks, but in real fighting people hit back when hit and they rush you all at once if there's a number of them.

    So the multiple attach scenario in the dojo may look good, but in real life it might cost you a serious a** whipping or possibly death if you think you can take more than one person at the same time. When I mean the same time that's what I mean, not attacking you one by one.

  6. #21
    Benjamin Peters Guest

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    Orignally posted by Orlando Carasquillo
    In regards to self defense and martials, I hate when people discuss martial arts is that they always say defenses against multiple attackers as if any traditional art has anything romotely similar to a scenario that could use effectively against a mass attack. Sorry folks, but in real fighting people hit back when hit and they rush you all at once if there's a number of them.


    Good point Orlando, your post was well informed too (from the perspective of sport and self-defense). As for the element of Judo vs BJJ, I must say that the difference I feel is that BJJ is more dynamic in the sense that it's the 'transitions' into positions/submissions that make it more developed from Judo (MY OPINION ONLY _ NOT HERE TO START AN ART v ART THREAD).

  7. #22
    Lens Guest

    Default NO

    Is BJJ actualy Jujutsu?

    Well, an obvius NO. Everyone knows it came out of Judo!

    Having said this its still a great art.

    1.)But JJ is not brazillian neither american!

    2.)Judo came out of jj and was named so.

    3.)learning judo and recaling it jujutsu is kinda against the rule. Better call it Gracie Ryu / kan Judo! or just a simple brazilian name!

    Kenjutsu, developed kendo....and so on.... kendo will never develop kenjutsu....(from jutsu to do).....

    4.) forget names and move t the most important! wich is technique....
    Look at Jujutsu and BJJ..... wath a distinction!

    still insist its JJ? certanly no one can say Japanese Jujutsu is not good Jujutsu or second best to american or brazilian!, because its the real thing with all its meritorius glory....

    so the list goes on.......

    i love watching bjj but well some things are so obvoius


    Lens

    By the way: im off to west virginia america tomorow... of to se DNBK international division. Im a happy man finally. love you all. Who knows maybe i will start training again. love you all.

  8. #23
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    In the UK, in the 1970s, Jujtusu was born from a mixture of Judo and Karate - people who were looking for their roots. What they re-created had nothing whatsoever to do with Japan. I know becasue I was mixed up in it at the time. They called their arts Jujutsu,and they included what they thought were all aspects of it - kicking / punching / groundwork / locking / weapons etc. Problem was, it had no substance - and nothing one could call aiki - just a hodge poge collection of stuff. Also practicing Aikido at the same time, I soon realised that Japanese Jujutsu - the real deal as observed in demos done by visiting Japanese - was far more similar to Japanese styles of Jujutsu than anything I had ever learned in UK Jujutsu. That particular style of Jujutsu still exists everywhere in the UK although many have changed their names and affiliations. Thing is, in essence it was created ad hoc. BJJ is created based on what works but to me, nothing like what I expect Jujutsu to be. In fact, I guess it is reverse Judo. I mean, In Judo they want to stand up; in BJJ they want to work on the floor. That is the impression I think most people get about BJJ. Also, on looking at BJJ sites, many of the practicioners sell themselves like professional boxers or wrestlers - mega egos abound. Bigger than mega, I should say, in many cases. To compare, have you ever seen a Judo page where a teacher bothers to list his tournament records, full of pics of himself flexing his muscles, with scowling expressions intended to scare future adversaries? Are they catching the pro-wrestling bug?

  9. #24
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    The French introduced Muay Thai to France and threw in some European style boxing - this became Savate
    I think that Savate actually came from a form of Ship deck fighting, that was employed by French sailors. The kicks bear little or no appearance of Muay Thai

    Jon Gillespie
    Jon Gillespie

  10. #25
    vadrip Guest

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    Yeah, Savate practioners don't chamber their kicks, they just throw them out there, they use the low shin kick like muay thai, but they don't really use the elbows and knee clinching like muay thai employs. They use more traditional western boxing for their hands too.

  11. #26

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    Originally posted by rupert
    In the UK, in the 1970s, Jujtusu was born from a mixture of Judo and Karate - people who were looking for their roots. What they re-created had nothing whatsoever to do with Japan. I know becasue I was mixed up in it at the time.

    That particular style of Jujutsu still exists everywhere in the UK although many have changed their names and affiliations. Thing is, in essence it was created ad hoc.
    Hi Rupert,

    Could you share some more info on the creation of British jujutsu? I assume you're talking about the British Ju-jitsu Assoc. syllabus put together by Robert Clarke (and Richard (I think) Morris)?

    Academic curiosity only - although I train in Robert Clarke's WJJF, I certainly won't flame you if your opinions are critical of the style. I'm just interested in how the style developed.

    (NB: from very early on in my training I could tell that this was 'British jujutsu', with minimal links to Japan. I have always assumed that it was developed off the back of judo's long presence in the UK. Stylewise it is heavily judo based, basically judo with added 'nasty' bits. Personally, I think they should drop all Japanese trappings, and claim it as British Ju-Jitsu, much as the Brazilians have done - they could then claim lineage all the way back to Barton-Wright!)

    Cheers,

    Mike

  12. #27
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    Default BJJA

    Mike,

    I did it for most of the 1980s and yes - the same style. BJJA. They used English names for all the techniques because they were made in the UK - that much is obvious, though I know some have now adopted a more Japanese 'look'. They were also infamous for the high grades wearing stripey polka dot hakama of all sorts of wild colours.

    Where does it come from? Not entirely sure where the syllabus comes from - you'd have to ask Liverpool about that but they always claimed links to Rod Sacharnosky's group in the states - although he never knew about it. Maybe it is his syllabus - I heard that said, but don't know if its true - you'd have to see what they do and compare it. Incidentally, RS gets a lot of stick on this site but I like what he does technically - the part's I have seen (looks nothing like BJJA really). I also heard that it came from an old UK circus wrestler. Read about Blundell (not sure if the spelling is correct).

    Critique? The syllabus is, rather suspect, in my opinion. Quite disorganised and ad-hoc. The main problem was that similar grades always trained together (good for high grades) and only do the stuff on their syllabus - for the next grade - the syllabus was king. So, you never revised anything. Never any 'left handed' stuff either - well, we used to say left handed, but we always started from a left stance, so maybe there was no right handed stuff..? And those stupid badges we had to buy and stick on our Gis. That really irked a lot of people.

    There was some good stuff in there though - I did it to black belt and generally enjoyed it / learned a lot.

    Rupert Atkinson

  13. #28

    Default Made in Britain

    Thanks Rupert!

    I remember reading about the Sacharnoski connection (here on e-budo I think). It seems to have been severed a long time ago, Robert Clarke and RS seem to have had something of a falling out - I don't think either the BJJA or WJJF now claim affiliation to anyone (but themselves).

    I hear you on the critique. If it's any consolation, most clubs I have seen now make sure that back-syllabus and basics are reviewed every class along with the paired syllabus work. Also, in our club at least, the instructors are encouraged to bring their previous experience into the mix - for example we've got guys from boxing, judo and escrima backgrounds, quite diverse! (I'm quite encouraged by how many folks end up training with us after time spent in other arts).
    We also do a fair bit of randori - mostly groundwork, but also standup ('judo style'), random attack drills etc. It all seems well balanced, despite the presence of 'The Syllabus'.

    Left handed stuff does now start to creep in from purple belt onwards, but we still do FAR too little. And most of the weapons work seems highly suspect, but then I have no interest in that side of things anyway.

    Patches on gis what can I say? Another annoying feature (thankfully absent from my club) is the tendency to split each belt into two (blue & white, blue, purple & white, purple), which doesn't seem to serve any purpose other than twice as many grading fees.

    But overall, it's very good stuff and highly enjoyable.

    Cheers,

    Mike

  14. #29
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    Mike,

    When I did Jujutsu (BJJA) there was absolutely no emphasis on competition - how is it today in BJJA?

    Rupert

  15. #30

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    Don't know about the BJJA, but there still isn't in the WJJF.

    The third big JJ group (Ju-Jitsu International Federation) is quite active on the competition front, I believe.

    Competition is one aspect I really miss, so I shall probably start cross-training this year. Either judo or BJJ. Probably the latter, as submission grappling appeals more than Judo shiai (or JJIF rules).

    Cheers,

    Mike

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