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Thread: BJJ - Is it really Jujutsu?

  1. #31
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    Hi Guys

    BJJ is Jujutsu. The person that taught Carlos was a Jujutsu practistioner. Also Judo came from Jujutsu. Also spelling has nothing to do with it. Jujutsu, Juitsu, Judo, Juido is all the same. Rememeber in the "old" days the Japanese knew nothing about English language. Also the English speaking people did not know how to spell words that are only made from pictographs and not words. So it was all guess work at that time
    Mark J. Speranza
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  2. #32
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    Hi
    That's pretty much what I was trying to say. You put it better.
    Thanks
    Mark J. Speranza
    Dojo cho
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  3. #33
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    Originally posted by Mark J. Speranza
    Hi
    That's pretty much what I was trying to say. You put it better.
    Thanks
    Russ didn't say that BJJ is Jujutsu and he didn't say Judo was Jujutsu either. Nor did he say that Maeda was a practioner of Jujutsu. He said he was a Judoka.
    "Qasim" Uriah Gardner

    "I'd like to think there are always... possibilities."

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    I really don't want to turn this thread into "is judo jujutsu", but I will say this: Many "judoka" from the old days called their art Kano Jujutsu.

    Now I know Judo has evolved since Maeda's time, but if they were calling what they did judo or jujutsu, who are we to say there is such a strong demarcation between the two(at least in ref to judo of that time)?
    Rob Erman

  5. #35
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    It was once called Kano jujutsu because that it was Kano originally named it before he called it judo. Judo is jujutsu, but it's the principles(maxims), shiai and the fact of randori being the mainstay in judo that makes it differ from jujutsu. Jujutsu was mainly kata with little or no randori for the most part and consisted of mainly battefield techniques with mainly standing joint locks, strikes, weapon training and throws.

    It had very little newaza if any and mainly had holdowns like you would see in aikido. The words judo and jujutsu had been used interchangeably since judo was founded so indeed judo is jujutsu, but judo is also judo. If most people still trained judo the original way with all the katas, banned waza, and weapons like they use to do when it was fairly young they would get a closer idea of judo's jujutsuness so to speak.

  6. #36
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    Hi
    ***the fact of randori being the mainstay in judo that makes it differ from jujutsu. Jujutsu was mainly kata with little or no randori for the most part and consisted of mainly battefield techniques with mainly standing joint locks, strikes, weapon training and throws***

    Hate to say this but you are not correct. Are you also trying to say that since Jujutsu came before Judo that they had no Randori style training?? Come on think logically. Do you relly believe that Kano came up with the concept of person to person matches. If you do the research you will see that that statement is incorrect. I have it somewhere but there is a whole match that was done with Jujutsu guys versing Judo guys to see which style was better.



    ****It had very little newaza if any and mainly had holdowns like you would see in aikido. The words judo and jujutsu had been used interchangeably since judo was founded so indeed judo is jujutsu, but judo is also judo. If most people still trained judo the original way with all the katas, banned waza, and weapons like they use to do when it was fairly young they would get a closer idea of judo's jujutsuness so to speak. ***


    Are you saying there is no Ne-waza in Jujutsu??? Where did Ne-waza come from then? Judo, Bjj. Please research before you speak. Also many times Judo was referred to as "Ippon Judo" to differenciate from submission style fighting.
    Mark J. Speranza
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    Academy of Martial Arts
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  7. #37
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    No, you need to do some research I said jujutsu did randori, but most styles did very little if any at all same goes for newaza too. So you have a problem understanding what the truth is. I never said judo invented these things because they didn't like they just made it their mainstay as way of training vs mainly kata training which was what the jujutsu styles were doing. Judo advanced the techniques of newaza and tachi waza, they didn't invent them they just improved on the techniques and furthered the advancement of them.

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    Just to be a punk add western wrestling to the influences on newaza.

    Can you say Prussian influence? Good.
    Doug Walker
    Completely cut off both heads,
    Let a single sword stand against the cold sky!

  9. #39
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    Orlando is correct about the koryu jujutsu being mainly practiced through kata. This is consistent with all I have read on old jujutsu. However, jujutsuka evidently engaged frequently is true fights, in which they had an opportunity to test technique. At least this was true in the late 1800s, if you give any weight to Harrison’s book, and evidently was one of the reasons that Kano introduced randori and shiai into his jujutsu, to take the fighting out of the street.

    As for newaza, it appears they are of modern origin (by modern I mean the last 100 years or so). The koryu jujutsu seem to have relied very little on groundwork. This is consistent with the European practice in kampfringen, or combat wrestling, a fighting art astonishingly similar to jujutsu which was practiced in Europe during the middle ages. Most of the great fight books were set down in the 1400s, more than a century before the founding of the first known jujutsu ryu (takenouchi, 1532). They show little ground work, and some (Fiore, the greatest of them) none at all. Talhoffer and the Gladiatoria show people on the ground, but primarily the daggers are out. The Codex Wallerstein shows a few restraints on the ground, but goes into no detail about groundwork, whereas it is quite comprehensive about what do when you are standing up. (For information on the fechbuchen, see www.thearma.org or www.aemma.org.) This leads one to conclude that the ancients, who engaged in true combats to the death, did not regard groundwork as we know it today as being very useful or important. If they had, they would have covered it in their fechtbuchen. This leads to the second conclusion that groundwork or newaza grew out of submission or sport fighting and not true combat. (It has also been my experience in true fights that wrestling on the ground is largely a waste of energy.)

  10. #40
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    Default randori or lack thereof

    As some of you surely know the initial influx of newaza came from the kododkan's defeat to the Fusen Ryu(didn't know it was in kata though, cool). They also had an influence from western wrestling(most obvious would be things like morote gari and kata guruma in tachi waza).

    Classical jujutsu did engage in randori, particularly during the edo period. Inter-school competitions were known as taryu-jiai. I've also heard that many samurai who practiced jujutsu practiced sumo in their spare time as a pastime. This shows an obvious link between kata geiko and resistance grappling, IMO. It would seem to me that due to the combined effects of the meiji restoration and Japan's later defeat in WWII kata practice became the mainstay of training to deemphasize the combative nature of the arts--at least to outside eyes.
    Rob Erman

  11. #41
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    ***Judo advanced the techniques of newaza and tachi waza, they didn't invent them they just improved on the techniques and furthered the advancement of them.***

    Hi
    Since any time in a Judo match if yu are on the ground for more than, I think 10 seconds, you are told to stand up ad start again. Given this, I would have to say that Ne-waza in Judo is very small, not advanced and not looked at as a vital part of the sport. I use the word SPORT. Do you really think that any fighting style would not count falling to the ground and knowing how to fight from there an important part of their teaching? Now also in the above statement you say they didn't invent them but improved upon them. So where did it come from in your opinion?

    ***Jujutsu was mainly kata with little or no randori ***
    And you did say this which is what I was refering to in my last post.

    Also, another analogous system known as TORI in some parts of Japan and SHIME in other parts, was an extention of Jujutsu in groundwork and it is more than possible that many of the locks and holds in Jujutsu were originated by exponents of TORI. TORI gave slight importance to "throws" as they mainly confined themselves to falling to the ground and then pulling your opponent down and "struggle for a victorious lock".(taken from Jujutsu by S.K. Uyenishi)

    Sounds like Ne-waza to me.

    Look at a lot of the kata, although it may not "say" this is how to do Ne-waza it most certainly can be. I will use a very well known technique of Juji-gatame as an example.
    Mark J. Speranza
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    Shinken Bujutsu
    www.likarate.com
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  12. #42
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    Obviously some people don't understand things like Mark, I said what I said and admitted it and had it proved by posts done by others. Jujutsu invented the techniques, judo furthered them by randori vs mainly kata training by jujutsu. Is that so hard to understand, I saying jujutsu did it first, but judo it took a step further.

    Also, newaza in a judo contest and newaza done in a dojo are two different things and doesn't mean judo newaza is not advanced or vital. In the dojo you can grapple how you want, while the contest has its rules.

    Also, in reference to another post saying newaza being useless wrestling on the ground, sorry but many have found themselves on the ground in real fights either by accident or be taking it to the ground, either way people have successfully choked, armlocked and reversed their positions to overcome their attackers so I wouldn't call that useless.

    Just because grappling is used in a fight doesn't mean you automatically put yourself there, you can taken down and have to grapple in order to get back up or have to use a choke or an joint lock to defeat your attacker. So one aspect of training is no better than other, it's just an aspect and the best defense and offense is always common sense so you know when to use it and when not.

  13. #43
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    I think jujutsu schools practiced mainly kata after the turn of the century. I also think if you went back a little further the kata/randori ratio would be different. I think this is what Mark is saying.

    I will say this though, I've cross-trained in judo ne waza, submission grappling, sambo, bjj...etc. Judo has some awesome ne waza. It may not be allowed in some of the competitions because of rules, but Judo ne waza can be just as advanced as bjj. And not all judo is sport, which I believe has been said already. Also, I think japanese schools of jujutsu can be just as advanced. It's all in the training method and what you do with the principles.

    And I agree with the above post that considering wrestling around on the ground to be a waste is pretty ridiculous. There are young, athletic, and somewhat hot-headed mixed martial artists training to move in and take people off of their feet on a daily basis. Not preparing for this, and all of the other ground-related possibilities is what is ridiculous. Plus, regularly wrestling around on the ground with a trained grappler would highly improve the odds and speed of quickly gaining a dominant postition and either striking, breaking, weapon deployment, or simply escaping from your attacker.
    Rob Erman

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    Originally posted by Mark J. Speranza
    Since any time in a Judo match if yu are on the ground for more than, I think 10 seconds, you are told to stand up ad start again. Given this, I would have to say that Ne-waza in Judo is very small, not advanced and not looked at as a vital part of the sport. I use the word SPORT.
    Might be the rules, but many clubs do a lot of groundwork. I have done it for two hours at a time.

    Rupert Atkinson

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    Originally posted by Mark J. Speranza

    Since any time in a Judo match if yu are on the ground for more than, I think 10 seconds, you are told to stand up ad start again.
    This is a bit of misconception. Most refs will not restart until it is apparent there is no progress towards a finishing technique on the ground; but there is no strict limit to the time spent on the ground. If it appears that you've started an armlock or some other finishing hold, the ref will usually give you as much time as it takes, as long as it appears you've got a chance to finish the hold, or your opponent escapes the hold.
    Peter Claussen

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