Bujinkan Overflow?

[Jack Ryan]

The Bujinkan was first introduced to mainstream America by (now) Shihan Stephen K. Hayes in 1975. So, it has been roughly 26 years. Since 1975 when the number of Shidoshi could becounted on your fingers (maybe using one hand twice), there have gone from about 12 -15 shidoshi, to over 1,000 shidoshi.

So, there are over 1,000 people "qualified" to teach Hatsumi Sensei's martial art. Not to mention all of the shidoshi-ho who have there own training halls.

The Genbukan was formed in 1984 if I remember correctly. In its 19 years of existence, I see that they have only 100 dojos around the world to show for Tanemura Sensei's effort to teach his martial arts.

The Jinenkan has been around only 6 or 7 years. They have but 12 dojos around the world.

How is it the the Genbukan which has been around only 6 or 7 years less then the Bujinkan, have only 100 dojos? Could this be the fact that the Bujinkan has been pushing out an average of approximately 40 "qualified" shidoshi per year. A level that at one time was considered somethign special? What do you think is the reason behind that?

Jack

[Tamdhu]

What's the reason? There is none. It's just the way it turned out.

There is no numbers game when it comes to getting the knowledge and training you want.

Good luck!

[pete lohstroh]

Jack,
since you posed the question, would you mind letting me know what you think is implied by this data and why you think it is significant?

Thanks much.

[John Lindsey]

I think the Genbukan appeals to a smaller percent of people, those who might be more interested in a traditional, structured approach to the art.

Hatsumi S. has put a lot of effort into spreading the art over the last 25 years. You have to give him credit for that, and for setting up a system whichs allows progession in rank at a faster rate, than say that of a traditional Japanese dojo system such as the Katori Shinto-ryu.

[Dom C]

Originally posted by John Lindsey

Hatsumi S. has put a lot of effort into spreading the art over the last 25 years. You have to give him credit for that, and for setting up a system whichs allows progession in rank at a faster rate, than say that of a traditional Japanese dojo system such as the Katori Shinto-ryu.

I'm not sure why anyone would want to be thankfull for a quick progression through rank,and even if was worth mentioning it wouldnt exactly be seen as something deserving credit.

[bencole]

Originally posted by Jack Ryan
What do you think is the reason behind that?

Well, there's the source.... and then there's, well, you know....

-ben

[Ninja2004]

I think the Genbukan appeals to a smaller percent of people, those who might be more interested in a traditional, structured approach to the art.

Please elaborate on how you see the Bujinkan as being a less traditional and structured approach to the art?

Chris

[Jonathan]

Originally posted by John Lindsey

Hatsumi S. has put a lot of effort into spreading the art over the last 25 years. You have to give him credit for that, and for setting up a system whichs allows progession in rank at a faster rate, than say that of a traditional Japanese dojo system such as the Katori Shinto-ryu.

You can say that again!

10th DAN in 12 years (per one Bunjinkan web site). That's even quicker than in the ATA.

Still, he has worked very hard to promote his art and if he has more students it is because more have sought him out. I don't see anything wrong with the statistics.

[ninjaman]

Bujinkan´s popularity is due to Soke´s art, which is like no other. And that is what draws people to him. It´s as easy as that.

As for the ranking system - do ot pay attention to it. If you focus on belts, you are a dead martial artist anyway. Just feel grateful if you are given one, then continue training.

Johan Grönwall

[Tamdhu]

Hatsumi S. has put a lot of effort into spreading the art over the last 25 years. You have to give him credit for that...

Gee, thanks!

; )

[methos]

That it is not a matter of numbers o reasons why something is happening, it is more a matter of what you find in the bujinkan, I have practiced many martial arts until I found out about Soke, and I recognized spirit and heart when it comes to training. It is not the art itself, it is about you becoming a better person and I think that is much more appealing than anything else on this world....

[kimq]

Personally, I am a strong adherent that all ranks should get the boot. Each of us should be judged by our physical ability, knowledge, and our names rather than rank.

[bencole]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jonathan
10th DAN in 12 years (per one Bunjinkan web site). That's even quicker than in the ATA.

People don't join the Bujinkan and stay with it because they "may get rank quickly." That's silly.

They train because it is one of the most fulfilling, comprehensive martial arts out there. They stay because they love the atmosphere of training, the respect for individual differences (rather than forcing everyone to be the same), the effectiveness of the techniques, the wisdom and ability of one of the foremost martial artists in the world, and finally for the pure joy of training...and LIFE!

Hatsumi-sensei stopped "seeking new students" looooong ago. But they just keep coming! You gotta wonder why....

-ben

[Jack Ryan]

People come to the Bujinkan for many reasons. People stay in the bujinkan for many reasons. Same with the other organizations. My point wasn't about that. Nor about Hatsumi Sensei's abilities (IMHO, he is an amazing martial artist).

My post was about the influx of "qualified" Bujinkan shidoshi today. There is a serious lack of quality in the martial arts of many (but by no means all) of these "qualified" shidoshi.

I have seen so many different renditions of the same Ryu-ha kata performed, that it isn't even funny. I have been told, almost every time, "The other ways you have seen it are henka variations. But this is the way it is written in the scrolls.". Sorry, but the information just hasn't been given to all of the "qualified" shidoshi. I have heard all about "Learn the Form, Break the Form, Forget the form". I understand the concept, and agree with it. But the fact is far too many "qualified" shidoshi haven't even learned the form. They simply use that concept as a cop-out. And Hatsumi Sensei doesn't care. Why? Because there are a few (very few) who have learned the correct form, and who will be passing down the true Ryu-ha as they were meant to be passed down.

Most people in the Bujinkan are never going to learn the true Ryu-ha techniques and principles simply becuse they have noone to learn them from (even thought they think they do). Budo Taijutsu is watered down. It is public. It is mass-media. Not very many respectible Koryu would ever let this happen to their Ryu-ha. There are people who have been studying in Ryu-ha for 20 years who do not have the right to teach the techniques yet. Some "qualified" Bujinkan Shidoshi have trained for less than half that time, and can "teach" the techniques of 6 Ryu-Ha. Somethign isn't right here.

My piont simply is this....There are probably less then 20 people in the Bujinkan who can truly teach these Koryu from beginning to end. And none of them issue true Shoden/Chuden/Okuden Menkyo (except maybe Murumatsu Shihan). Too many people on this board think that they understand the martial arts of the Bujinkan. When in fact, they are only seeing the public face of the Bujinkan, not the true REAL MARTIAL ARTS that are its contents.

Over 1,000 "qualified" instructors? Not Really.

- Jack Ryan
(Former Bujinkan Shodan who got his Shodan by writting to Bujinkan Honbu Dojo, sending the fee, and recieving "Shodan" in the mail. Didn't even hae a copy of a "Shidoshi-Kai" card.)

[kimq]

Originally posted by Jack Ryan

(Former Bujinkan Shodan who got his Shodan by writting to Bujinkan Honbu Dojo, sending the fee, and recieving "Shodan" in the mail. Didn't even hae a copy of a "Shidoshi-Kai" card.)

Can you substantiate this?