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Thread: Seiza

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    Question Seiza

    Hi all,

    Just curious. How are your legs aligned in seiza?

    I'm wondering if I can't handle seiza because I'm kneeling on the line of the second toe so the alignment of the ankle joint is perpendicular to the floor....

    I see some people sit as if they are sitting on the outer edge of the lower leg, the place where you'd feel shin splints?

    Also, why do some people cross their toes?

    Would anyone who does iai cross their toes in seiza?

    Thanks!
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  2. #2
    samuel-t Guest

    Default Re: Seiza

    Originally posted by DCPan
    Just curious. How are your legs aligned in seiza?
    I don't know how to explain it really, but I just kneel with approximately one and a half hand's width between my knees and my feet stretched out behind me, big toe next to big toe.

    Originally posted by DCPan
    Would anyone who does iai cross their toes in seiza?
    Don't know if anyone would. In ZNKR and MSR we're specifically instructed NOT to cross toes (not that I can see any real reason TO cross toes -- IMHO seiza gets more uncomfortable and balanced if you do). The reason being that it is very hard to get up quick when crossing your toes. I would GUESS that the same goes for every Iai ryu (but that's only my guess).

    /Samuel

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    Default

    Had to think about this one. I find seiza more comfortable when my heels turn out slightly, with slightly "bowed" legs if you can imagine that. I've never had shin splints, but I think this is what you might mean? It's just a little more comfortable for me, personally, that's all

    I was also taught not to put your weight down on your heels, but to kind of "hover" imperceptibly above them, ie - your weight is supported by your thigh muscles, not your lower legs and feet.

    As I type this I am in "seiza" (my computer is on the floor), and my knees are together and my toes are crossed. I find it more comfortable than the seiza we use in iai. It's also more polite for a woman to sit with her knees together, anyway, especially if she is wearing a skirt. I've been told it's incorrect to cross the toes in iai too, and it does stop you getting up quickly too.

    I was also told to sit with the knees about two fists apart, but because I am female I could keep my knees a little closer together (about one fist or so) if I wished, and it would still be acceptable. I was wondering what other peoples thoughts were on this?
    Kiz Belle

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    Default Re: Seiza

    Originally posted by DCPan
    Hi all,

    Just curious. How are your legs aligned in seiza?

    I'm wondering if I can't handle seiza because I'm kneeling on the line of the second toe so the alignment of the ankle joint is perpendicular to the floor....

    I see some people sit as if they are sitting on the outer edge of the lower leg, the place where you'd feel shin splints?
    We do it very much like Samuel explained (I practise also Muso Shinden ryu, although not ZNKR).

    I got an advice from Kim Taylor once through the iaido-list, which I've found very helpfull. When sitting down to seiza push your heels close to each other. This pushes your balance a little bit forward and takes some weight off from your heels and you can get up with using less power. We have been taught to sit in seiza so that (without using our thigh muscles) the weight shouldn't be on one's heels but there should be very small space between the buttocks and the heels, so that if someone puts a paper there as one sits in seiza, the paper could be pulled out without tearing it

    I also advice people whom I'm teaching to sit in seiza to do this and I've noticed that also their shisei becomes better as their seiga tanden moves a bit forward. People who have their heels apart seem to "sulk" there and usually their lower back gets bent.

    Other than that I can't help but to say that now after ten years of MSR, sitting in seiza on hard wood floors and a few years sitting in tate-hiza my feet have "mutated". They have formed a small "cushion" of cartilage where it used to hurt and seiza nor tate-hiza are now longer a big problem to me. So keiko, keiko and watch tv in seiza
    -Mikko Vilenius

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    Default

    Originally posted by Kiz Belle

    I was also taught not to put your weight down on your heels, but to kind of "hover" imperceptibly above them, ie - your weight is supported by your thigh muscles, not your lower legs and feet.
    We have been taught, like I wrote that one should also "hover" a little, but using the thigh muscles is a no-no. The point being that if one has to sit a long time one gets tired and the weight shifts to the feet and the seiza (and one's body) becomes little bit tense alltogether. The idea is to locate one's center of gravity so that the weight shifts to forward (without loosing your shisei of course). Also the benefit is that one can get up and forward faster as the balance is already a little forward.
    I strugled with this for a long time until I read Kim Taylor's advice that I described above. A small "satori"

    I've also been instructed and in turn instruct the people I'm teaching to have a gap of one and half fists between their knees if they are men and up to one fist gap if they are women.
    -Mikko Vilenius

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    Default

    >Just curious. How are your legs aligned in seiza?

    Umm, lemme see.

    Not sure what you're asking, David. If I sit in seiza (am right now, oddly enough -- hard to reach the keyboard ...), heels are under my the ischial tuberosities (sit bones), weight on my feet are mostly on the arch of the instep ...

    Are you sitting with your toes pointed in (towards each other?)

    >Also, why do some people cross their toes?

    Umm, because sensei told me to.

    >Would anyone who does iai cross their toes in seiza?

    See above, but in out batto, we don't do seiza. When I learned seiteigata and started poking a MJER a few years back, I just did seiza the same way I'd originally leanred it.

    Chuck
    Chuck Gordon
    Mugendo Budogu
    http://www.budogu.com/

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    Default Re: Seiza

    Originally posted by DCPan
    Hi all,

    Just curious. How are your legs aligned in seiza?

    Also, why do some people cross their toes?

    Would anyone who does iai cross their toes in seiza?

    Thanks!
    I practice MJER Seitokai Iaido (our current headmaster is Ikeda-soke), and have been taught to sit in seiza with my big toes crossed. Some do left over right, others right over left (varies from teacher to teacher within the ryu). Distance between the knees for men should be 2 to 1 fist widths (this varies a little from teacher to teacher within the ryu), for women just 1 fist width. As to why we cross the big toes, I've never been given a reason, but I suspect it has to do with keeping one foot width distance between the feet when bringing the toes under as you come out of seiza. I've noticed that it's easier to get it right if the big toes are crossed.

    I've also been told to maintain tension in the thighs, while in seiza, such that if an arrow shaft were to be placed on top of the heels it would not be bent or broken,

    --Emily
    Emily Egan
    www.clear-lake-iaido.com

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    Talking Still searching

    Originally posted by Kiz Belle
    Had to think about this one. I find seiza more comfortable when my heels turn out slightly, with slightly "bowed" legs if you can imagine that. I've never had shin splints, but I think this is what you might mean? It's just a little more comfortable for me, personally, that's all
    Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. It seemed to me that those who are more flexible and/or have sat in seiza since being little tend to sit slightly differently. Your description of hells turned out slightly is exactly what I see.
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    Talking No Satori for me yet!

    Hi,

    Originally posted by Vile

    When sitting down to seiza push your heels close to each other. This pushes your balance a little bit forward and takes some weight off from your heels and you can get up with using less power.
    Hmm...I'm not sensing this yet...more keiko I guess...help, can't...find...center...

    I will think about my center more at next practice.
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    Talking

    Hi Chuck,

    Originally posted by Chuck.Gordon

    Umm, lemme see.

    Not sure what you're asking, David. If I sit in seiza (am right now, oddly enough -- hard to reach the keyboard ...), heels are under my the ischial tuberosities (sit bones), weight on my feet are mostly on the arch of the instep ...
    Are you sitting with your toes pointed in (towards each other?)
    Oh, I'm asking because I always look constipated when I'm in seiza because I'm in pain. I'm not very flexible to begin with. I've always envied those people who can crouch down without lifting their heels off the floor because I can't do that.

    My heels are under the ischial tuberosities like you said.

    The bones of my two lower legs basically form a "V". The foot is pointed in the same direction as the leg bone...as far as I can tell. You can also tell that while I learned anatomy for the trunk, I've yet to master the vocab for the limbs

    My toes are pointing in (hence the V), but not so pointed that the heels are turned out like what Kiz was saying.
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    Talking Tate-Hiza

    As an afterthought,

    I can't sit in Tate-Hiza at all...last time I tackled this aggressively, I earned myself an injury to the right piriformis muscle...

    With regards to tate-hiza, some have said the left heel should be on the ischial tuberosity while others have said that it should be along the line of the anus.

    Thoughts?
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  12. #12
    samuel-t Guest

    Default Re: Tate-Hiza

    Originally posted by DCPan
    As an afterthought,

    I can't sit in Tate-Hiza at all...last time I tackled this aggressively, I earned myself an injury to the right piriformis muscle...
    Ouch! I can certainly agree that Tate-Hiza isn't the most comfortable way of sitting, BUT I've found that if I concentrate more on my breathing and Hara, I don't really notice how uncomfortable I found it.

    Originally posted by DCPan
    With regards to tate-hiza, some have said the left heel should be on the ischial tuberosity while others have said that it should be along the line of the anus.

    Thoughts?
    I've learnt that you may keep your left foot almost anywhere, as long as it is hidden from front view. I try to sit with the left foot heel between my buttocks, toes pointing slightly to my right, because I've found that most comfortable. But sometimes I don't get it right and the heel ends up more under my left buttock, and that works too (though it isn't as comfortable).

    I think that the "trick" is to avoid putting your entire weight on the left foot, since that will put a lot of preasure on the (I don't know the correct word for it, sorry) protruding ball end of the ancle bone... And I for one find that VERY uncomfortable.

    /Samuel

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    Default

    For a long time I always sat in seiza with my big toes crossed, just because it felt natural that way. In a seitei seminar I was told not to cross my toes, so I made an effort to stop crossing them, but it rotated my feet just enough so my weight on the tops of my feet hurt a lot more than with my toes crossed. This is on a hard floor. But there's no difference in speed of getting up with toes crossed or without; that's just not that big of a deal. Also, we sit with our knees just-less-than-your-enemy's-foot's-width apart, if you get my drift.
    Ric Flinn

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    Question Re: Seiza

    if you'll permit a non-practitioner of iai to butt it ...

    Originally posted by DCPan
    >> How are your legs aligned in seiza? <<


    i don't pay much attention to the exact arrangement of my legs when i kneel. i do notice that folk who are very used to sitting like that can tuck their feet in very close to their rear end and cross them quite comfortably. i've experimented with a few different tricks and have usually found that the absence or presence of pain or numbness is mostly up to chance.

    >> Also, why do some people cross their toes? <<

    i've heard that this is supposed to help relieve loss of feeling in the feet; if you have to kneel for lengthy periods of time (as i do in tea), alternating sides is supposed to be especially beneficial. sadly, i haven't been able to prove this claim.

    >> Would anyone who does iai cross their toes in seiza? <<

    i doubt that there would be any reason to cross the toes while kneeling during martial arts training (i was also told in aikido classes to put the feet and toes side by side, never crossing them). no matter how well you train yourself, i suspect that crossed toes will hamper your body's ability to move to avoid an attack.

    do you iai folk really spend that much time just sitting in seiza? in the course of performing techniques don't you raise your rear ends off your feet and move around a little before you perform the next technique? wooden floors are hard, i grant you, but kneeling for 30 minutes straight even on tatami is probably far worse.
    Jeff Hamacher
    Those who speak do not know,
    Those who know will not speak ...
    So I guess that means I don't know a thing!

  15. #15
    stevemcgee99 Guest

    Default Hmmm...

    I believe that about 30 minutes straight.

    "Ask your sensei". I read two books about Aikido, one says "cross 'em", one says "don't". I have seen variations in iaido photos, too. My local sensei does it differently than the sensei I observed in SJ today was coaching his students to do. Both are supposed to be familiar with MSR. In the light of what Hammacher wrote, I suppose any sensei who found a cure to numbing legs would begin to teach it to their classes.

    Maybe that's the biggest difference between the Hyashizake lines of iai?

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