Bokken, bokuto

[Charlie Kondek]

Hi, all. So I bought a new bokken the other day, and I have some concerns. Basically, the bokken I bought is not very expensive and one of the thicker ones. Do you know what I mean when I say this? It is thicker and heavier than most of the ones you see, red oak, does not conform to the palm as well as the slimmer kind do, and I have heard people say, "Oh, that's not a bokken, that's a bokuto." Which, as far as I know, is incorrect - both bokken and bokuto are terms for the same thing, aren't they?

I use my bokken for a number of things: suburi, obviously, and kendo kata, but also kumitachi in iai practice, and I use it when learning a new iai form or when I am not in a position to practice iai with my iai-to (i.e., public gym, or someplace "on the fly").

While I like the weight of the heavier bokuto, I'm worried that its bulkier form might cause me to develop bad habits, like a wrong grip? Also, I'm worried that it would inflict more damage on slimmer bokken in paired practice. It's been my experience that bokken get banged up, even in kendo kata, over time - will my Big Bertha trash my buddy's svelter model?

Finally, I know, I know, I should shell out some real cash for a nice bokken. (Been meaning to contact Kim Taylor.) But papa didn't get a bokken for Christmas this year. Papa got a bottle of his favorite scotch.



Your thoughts?

[gendzwil]

Bokken and bokuto are two words that mean the same thing. Which word you use depends on what you learned first.

I have no thoughts on the thick handle. My own bokken is a custom job from Bruce Campbell, thinner and with more sori than a standard kendo bokken. I like it a lot.

[stevemcgee99]

Is it OK, then, to deviate from the "normal" bokken in the kendo kata? Or do you use it for other things?

[R A Sosnowski]

In general, I have heard the term "bokken" used for the wooden sword in Aikido and Kendo, and it seems to be specific to that style (length, shape, etc.) of wooden sword.

In other arts, like various styles of Kenjutsu and other Koryu such as Jojutsu and Naginata-jutsu, the term used is "bokuto." It seems to be a more generic term, as it covers a variety of styles, from the slim varieties of Niten Ichi Ryu and Yagyu Ryu to the thick and straight varieties used in Kashima Shinryu.

HTH.

[David T Anderson]

I agree with the others...bokken and bokuto refer to the same thing, despite minor variatons in weight, etc. Of course there is the suburito, which is a lot heavier than a standard bokken and belongs in a class by itself.

I wouldn't recommend a heavy bokken to a beginner...at that stage you are supposed to be developing finesse and 'feel', not muscle, and a regular bokken will develop sufficient strength to be going on with anyway. I don't know anything about your paired practice...my group is strongly discouraged from any blade-to-blade contact. If you think you will be too hard on your training partners' equipment...well, let your conscience be your guide.

I've got a nice hickory bokken from Sei Do Kai, but after playing with it a bit I realized that it gives me nothing that my refinished red oak cheapie bokken doesn't...and I like the red oak better now that I've thoroughly soaked it in linseed oil as a toughening treatment. Mark me down as a skeptic on the merits of high-priced, exotic wood bokuto.

[DCPan]

Hi,

According to the original Chinese kanji, "ken" implies a "double-edged" sword while "to" implies a "single-edged" sword.

That distinction isn't a big deal in the Japanese language because the double-edged sword has kinda faded out in Japanese culture, making the distinction more academic than anything else.

However, if you see Japanese literature addressing weapons of other cultures, the use of those sword are still distinct and not mixed.

Also, the kanji for "shinai" is "shi (bamboo)" and "nai (with the kanji for toh or katana)".

So, the distinction is still there.

I try to say only bokuto now in my vocab, but that's just me.

[DCPan]

Hi,

Originally posted by stevemcgee99
Is it OK, then, to deviate from the "normal" bokken in the kendo kata? Or do you use it for other things?

While I'd assume your sensei has the final say on this, it would appear to me that if you use a bokuto on non-standard length, it would distort the maai for your practice partner.

There's a great thread somewhere on the forum about how one sensei of SMR Jojutsu is so short that when he performs hikiotoshi, the jo would strike the ground even though it is not part of the kata. Some taller students would imitate that because the sensei does it. The point of the story is that the practitioner adapts to the weapon, not the other way around (for koryu).

[Charlie Kondek]

Of course, I'm not a beginner (not a master or anything either) so the feel of the thing doesn't bother me - in fact, I like the weight.

Had this discussion at another forum about how bokken get banged up. There is some blade to blade contact in the kendo kata and in various kumitachi I have been shown in Muso Shinden Ryu. I mean, in one pairing, you assume hasso and slam your blade down on your partner's chudan-level position, then cut him across the middle. There's some dings here and there. Also, every once in a while you go to suri-age and catch your partner's bokken right on the tip or edge. I mean, it happens. I myself wouldn't want to pay a lot of money to then destroy the weapon.

[DCPan]

Hi,

Get a kingfisher/Dymondwood, and it'll never happen again, though your dojomates will hate you for destorying their weapons.

Honestly though, I don't see why the weapons would get destroyed under practice with reasonable force unless it is made of less than desirable material.

Mr. Relnick's Jo has lasted him 30+ years now (Shinto Muso Ryu Jodo)? It is just plain white oak.

[gendzwil]

My bokken is maybe a quarter-inch longer than standard. The difference is mainly in the sori and the width. It's originally meant for iai, so it has more of a sword feel to it. I've never had anybody criticise me for using it, in fact I passed my last exam using it.

I only do the kendo kata and I've never broken any bokken doing those. There's no hard contact unless you really screw up.

"Ken" and "to" are fairly interchangeable in modern use, although to is the more generic term (shoto, daito etc). Even a term like "tachi" which to us connotates a specific type of sword can be used generically (uchidachi, shidachi, motodachi). Most of the kendo people I've met used "bokken".

It's like "kenshi" or "kendoka". My sensei says "kendoka". Others say "kenshi". Either works, neither is wrong.

[DCPan]

Originally posted by gendzwil

"Ken" and "to" are fairly interchangeable in modern use, although to is the more generic term (shoto, daito etc). Even a term like "tachi" which to us connotates a specific type of sword can be used generically (uchidachi, shidachi, motodachi). Most of the kendo people I've met used "bokken".

Yeah, but the kanji for "tachi, shoto, daito, uchidachi, shidachi" is the kanji for "boku-TO" as in katana. So, the usage of those kanjis are internally consistent.

The kanji for moto-'dachi' is the kanji for "standing".

[gendzwil]

Originally posted by DCPan

Yeah, but the kanji for "tachi, shoto, daito, uchidachi, shidachi" is the kanji for "boku-TO" as in katana. So, those kanjis are internally consistent.
So just the ol' Chinese/Japanese pronunciation thing. Isn't katana a different kanji? The "to" used for those just means sword whereas katana definitely implies a particular style of sword.

The kanji for moto-'dachi' is the kanji for "standing".
Never knew that. Durn homonyms.

[DCPan]

Hello again,

The kanji in caps are all the same:

Boku-TO
Ta-CHI
Ko-da-CHI
Dai-TO
Sho-TO
KATANA
Uchi-da-CHI
Shi-da-CHI

All the same kanji. Different sounds, same kanji.

[DCPan]

Afterthought,

So, "moto-dachi" geiko has the implication of "we're standing here, have at it!" huh?

[Charlie Kondek]

To clarify, I didn't wreck my bokken over night. I've been in kendo for 4+ years, and have been doing iaido for, I guess it must be the past 2 years now. Had the same $10 red oak bokken for all that time, and it has only begun to come apart. A small divot in the ha has opened up, and the tip is a bit battered.