Fredrick J. Lovret, Attack

[Brooks Snider]

FINAL REPLY TO THE PREVIOUS THREAD.

To Mr. Harden,
Nicely put, thank you. But, what “proof” do you have that Lovret’s claims are false?

To Mr. Little, who so eloquently proved my point that talk is cheap.

To Mr. Scott,
“I'm not sure what you are offended over.” – I am not offended.
“However, if you don't agree with our opinions and observations, that is your right. Feel free to present your own opinion and observations. But don't threaten us because you don't agree. Offer a qualified statement or fact instead and really impress us.” – WHAT, threaten?

Mr. Scott, you express a talent for seeing what is not there or creating something from nothing. Maybe this is the catalyst for this thread.
I apologize, if you felt threatened by my words. That was not my intention. I thought I was, as you stated, free to present my “opinion” and observations. I do not know you or anyone else in this discussion. Therefore, I respect your opinions but I do not trust them. I have read your (pl) suppositional statements and have taken them for what they are. You (pl) have not presented any facts.
Also, I do hope Mr. Sabella “will” think for himself.


My Facts: I have trained kenjutsu with Mr. Lovret on four occasions over the past six years and with several of his seniors throughout that time period. I enjoyed the training and found the style to be practical. No extravagant claims were made, only intense informative training. I found the members of the ryu to be congenial, respectful, and professional. I can make no comparisons to other aiki or ken styles. I have been exposed to Aikido, Hakku ryu Jujutsu, and Sangaku ryu Jujutsu, but I have not trained. I have not been exposed to another kenjutsu style. Until someone can “prove” that Mr. Lovret and his style are bad/wrong/evil I will continue to train.
It amazes me that individuals are so impressed with their own ryu that they have invited me to come participate and “see” the difference – where are these people - hmmmm?

To Mr. Williams,
What recognized traditional ryu do you belong to? Please post. Also, if I am not mistaken Mabuni combined Naha-te and Shuri-te with a little Chinese Hakutsuru, did he not? His contemporaries thought this was crazy and “NO” other traditional karatedo has so many kata. From what I have read most think more than 12 or 15 kata in a ryu is ridiculous. So your point is?
What proof do you have that Mr. Lovret or his style is false or non-traditional?

To Ms. Fitzgerald,
The voice of honesty, thank you.

Mr. Cunningham,
Thank you for that personal attack on a complete stranger. It shows that your training has created a fine respectful man; your sensei should be proud. This is an excellent way for you to show the traits that we should all despise. Traits I have not experienced at any of Lovret’s taikai or with any of its members – Hmmmm - I had to come to E-BUDO for that, how interesting. The only cult I have been exposed to lately is the Cult of Conjecture, working its evil here.

Sincerely,
Brooks Snider

Zhuge Liang – “Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win.”

[Dan Harden]

Mr. Snider

No one is attacking anyone. If you are going to address us please do so in context.
I see from your letter you are yet another fan with little or no experience and admittedly have no basis to compare what he does and what you have seen with any classical arts he claims. How very! Your opinion is worth what? Yet you stand here on a cyber street corner telling us what a fine man he is and what great people train with him.
This has bearings on his credentials how?
Out of the depths of your ignorance you wish to tell us what?
"Brooks Snider likes him so his stuff becomes Katori Shinto ryu by default right?"

Listen, go get an education in the arts he claims-then come back and tell us what you think. If it has escaped your attention your hearing from people who have been there and done that. You have nothing to offer here other than a personal opinion of his personality. Thank you for that. I am sure he is swell and is well liked. This means what again? I recomend you start your education with purchasing a copy of his book, then the Three volume set of Katoryu shinto ryu, then any Omori ryu book you can find. From what I have seen from his students perhaps a book with Kendo no kata would help as well.
After that spend a while training in each, you will be in for a rude awakening. No doubt that in time you will find your way back here with apologies, since your experience will force you to agree with the others here whether you want to or not. I have yet to meet the man experienced in the above arts who think differently. Doesn't that tell you something? Maybe not.

It doesn't matter whether you LIKE someone or not. An art is an art-or it isn't. And I see you know nothing of these arts to even discuss them.
Get a grip fella
Dan

[kokumo]

Mr. Snider,

Macho posturing is cheap. Indeed, you might be surprised to find that I have some sympathy for your opinion of Mr. Cunningham's habitual recourse to conjecture and ad hominen attack.

I have made no comment regarding anyone's seriousness of purpose or genuineness of motivation.

Aside from echoing everything Dan said (I hate when I have to do that....), I suggest you research the phrase "bunbu ryodo ichi."

True words, like genuine budo training, take time and effort. But even sincere time and effort can be used more or less productively. Any remarks I have offered have been offered solely in the hope that sincere prospective practitioners of Japanese martial and cultural arts devote their time to clearly productive paths. Unlike the situation 25 years ago, access to authentic, verifiable koryu is now possible for serious students in many places throughout the Americas; prospective students are well-advised to seek them out.

NB: "banzai" and "bonsai" are very different. You might want to consult a dictionary and edit your profile while you're at it.

Fred Little

[Don Cunningham]

Mr. Little,

You might want to consult a dictionary, too, before posting nonsense.

<b>con·jec·ture</b>
1: inference from defective or presumptive evidence
2: a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork
3: a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved

<b>ad ho·mi·nem</b>
1 : appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect
2 : marked by an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

If you don't know what you're writing, at least try to spell it correctly. Your ad hominem attack is without merit since any thing I've ever posted here were conclusions based on direct research or direct personal observations.

[Don Cunningham]

Until someone can “prove” that Mr. Lovret and his style are bad/wrong/evil I will continue to train.

Mr. Snider,

If you've read any of the posts here, you would know that plenty of proof has already been provided. Obviously, you don't want to face the facts, but stop trying to deny the truth. Go ahead and play at your fantasy. Just don't expect others to believe in it or even respect you for it.

[Brooks Snider]

Mr. Scott has, and now Mr. Harden and Mr. Little have, expressed a talent for seeing what is not there and creating something from nothing: reference their posts.

Mr. Little, thank you for the correction in my profile.

To be exposed to another kenjutsu ryu was requested, no one offered. However, I will try and find the literature suggested.

Mr. Cunningham, what proof? I have only read your (pl) opinions.

To everyone, I should believe you because you say I should believe you because YOU know. You suffer from the same condition that you accuse me of, how funny. I repeat, I do not know you. Maybe one day we will have the pleasure of meeting. (I assure you this statement is not meant to be denigrating, posturing, or anything else!)

This discussion has been interesting, and I have learned that “everyone” has a sensitive area. (I assure you this statement is not meant to be denigrating, posturing, or anything else!)

I will reply no more. My thread time has ended.

Thank You,
Brooks Snider

Zhuge Liang – “Those who are skilled in combat do not become angered, those who are skilled at winning do not become afraid. Thus the wise win before they fight, while the ignorant fight to win.”

[kokumo]

Originally posted by Don Cunningham
Mr. Little,

You might want to consult a dictionary, too, before posting nonsense.

If you don't know what you're writing, at least try to spell it correctly. Your ad hominem attack is without merit since any thing I've ever posted here were conclusions based on direct research or direct personal observations.

Don,

Just so I don't have to read it again. Anything but that....

Thanks for catching the typo. I will certainly attempt to key more carefully in the future.

The suggestion that I need "to try to spell it correctly" suggests an underlying "conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork" that in this post, I did not "try to spell it correctly." That would be a conjecture. Is that the thrust of your note? No. Just a piece.

It is clear that many of your conclusions are based on direct research and direct personal observations, but it is equally clear that you regularly go beyond factual conclusions and ascribe motivations and intentions. The former elements have my respect. The latter do not.

To use the definition you cite, my beef is that you "attack an opponent's character in addition to repeating unanswered contentions." I plead guilty to abuse of my poetic license in stretching the definition to this extent.

Mind you, none of that has anything at all to whether I would like you if I met you, for the truth is that if I didn't some guilty pleasure in the wickedness of your pen and the apparent Ahab-like intensity of your Bad Budo quest for the Great White Fraud, the matter never would have come up.

I don't think we disagree about many of your conclusions; it's a persona and presentation issue. An earlier draft made that distinction more baldly and through oversubtlety, the distinction between attacking your habit and and attacking you yourself was clearly lost in the shuffle. That was inartful and you have my apology for any lack of clarity in that regard.

To the point of the matter: if we back people into corners with facts AND invective ALL the time, how will they get out of being stuck in the corner?

Maybe that's more nonsense. Or maybe we had managed to keep the invect-ometer on low and it was a welcome shift of tone on the subject.

But enough of our slanging match. If you want to give me an earful, feel free to take it private mail.

Mr. Snider is still stunned by what he has encountered here and he needs time to digest this most unusual experience. Why don't we give him some quiet to think?

Fred Little

[Don Cunningham]

Mr. Little,

No offense intended and none taken. In fact, I do on occasion question the character of the individual(s). As self-proclaimed martial arts instructors, though, their character or lack thereof should be a valid target in many instances. However, I do so only after examining their claims and related fabrications with logic, research, and sometimes personal observation.

Mr. Snider,

I don't know you either. However, it is your right as an American to do whatever you want as long as you cause no injury to others. You are also guaranteed the right to believe in whatever you want. As a member of the military forces, I put my own life on the line to protect such rights. I would do it again in a heartbeat.

My concern is your arrogant attitude in that we should also believe in what you believe, that we should also trust your opinion and not question the statements and claims made by Mr. Lovret. The fact that the claims made by Mr. Lovret have been proven false, that his teachings have little real basis in traditional Japanese kenjutsu, that his stated philosophy and writings show no real understanding of Japanese culture, this has all been discussed previously by many authorities. I have no doubt they are correct in their opinion that Mr. Lovret is not teaching a traditional style or that he fabricated much of his background training experiences.

If you wish to ignore their observations or prefer not to accept their opinions, that's fine. That is your right. Just please do not expect others like myself to go along with you in this fantasy. You should also not be surprised that you will receive little or no respect among your peers in the martial arts for doing so. Again, that is your choice.

I have respect for others, such as Mr. Wolfe, who once having been informed of the questionable heritage of his kenjutsu teacher, chose to look outside and find authentic expertise in other instructors. At least they had the courage to question what they were told and evaluate it objectively. Finally, they made the difficult choice to start over. I have little respect for those who blindly follow anyone, much less someone who has been clearly exposed as a fraud. I may have no respect for them, but I do respect their right to do so as long as this is done between consenting adults in the privacy of their own dojo.

[Don Cunningham]

[Please excuse the additional post. My computer dropped the connection or something and I had to logon again to put the final paragraph below to my previous post.]

Finally, I have presented much more than my "opinion." I have personally met Mr. Lovret. I have seen his "teachings" and his attitude and behavior toward others and toward me. While my opinion may be subjective, it is based on many years of martial arts study and living in Japan. My direct observations, though, are not simply opinions. These are facts, whether you accept them or not.

[Nathan Scott]

Mr. Snider,

Mr. Scott, you express a talent for seeing what is not there or creating something from nothing.

It's good to know that I have a talent in something, but I would be curious to know what you are talking about (?). Either way though, thanks for the compliment. The development of "Ken-Kan" is not easy, but maybe it can be sensed over the net after all.

I apologize, if you felt threatened by my words.

"Words don't threaten, people threaten" (inspired by NRA propaganda!)

Apology accepted. Don't be overly concerned about back peddling though, I'm not the litigation type. I'm inclined to handle things in a more direct fashion, and no, that was not intended as a threat either.

I thought I was, as you stated, free to present my “opinion” and observations.

Yes, you are free to do so, and have done so by the looks of things. You are also free to prove my point for me about the various psych profiles of martial arts students these days. Replying emotionally when confronted with compelling evidence - while not offering proof or evidence to the contrary - definitely meets one of the profiles I mentioned. It is also, BTW, extremely typical of the replies typically offered by students of Lovret's in threads like this. Coincidence?

The degradation taking place here is exactly what I had anticpated from the beginning, and is why I thought I would give everyone (including students of Lovret) a break by mentioning it early and later by closing the main thread before it got to this point. But hey, maybe any publicity is good publicity, right? Have it your way pal. I hope your classmates agree with continued negative pubicity efforts though.

You (pl) have not presented any facts.

No, actually, that is not correct. I mentioned the calligraphy published in Lovret's book, which I own, and explained what it says. I am able to read the kanji, and once someone pointed this out to me, I confirmed it for myself. If anyone wishes to debate this issue, I'll scan in one of the photos from the book and offer Nelson numbers for each kanji. Let me know.

Also, it is an (uncontested) fact that Donn Draeger sent a cease and desist letter to Lovet on behalf of Otake Sensei. This can also be proven if you think it is not true.

Incidently, in "Hiden Aikijutsu", which I also own, Lovret and the participants bow in to a drawing (not a photograph) of Takeda Sokaku. What is the connection between Sokaku and Yamate ryu again?

The only thing that has not been proven as fact are the claims made by Lovret, which is not our burden, but rather the burden of those making the claims.

I will merge this thread with the main thread at some point, and preserve it for all to marvel at. The internet really needs more inflamatory threads where supporters of Lovret debate others about his unsubstantiated claims.

I'd be happy to sell you some land in Malibu if you'll just take my word for it and send me a check. I promise that I own it and that it is nice land!

Oh well,

[ghp]

Nathan,

Also, it is an (uncontested) fact that Donn Draeger sent a cease and desist letter to Lovet on behalf of Otake Sensei. This can also be proven if you think it is not true.

A close personal friend of mine, living near me, was a Draeger student in Hawaii and still maintains contact with the other well-known former students. My friend told me this particular story over 4 years ago, saying that Otake sensei was more than extremely displeased -- I'm fairly sure he said "fuming mad."

Regards,
--Guy

[ghp]

UPDATE

Most of you probably know, but some don't. The links provided by Cady on the locked-out thread are a little dated (1999). In one, Meik Skoss correctly (as of that date) states:

Nope, nobody is, or has been, *authorized* to teach Shinto-ryu by Iizasa
Sensei.

Phil Relnick was recently given official permission to teach TSKSR. http://enma.org/2002/MA/Tenshinshoden.htm

Regards,
Guy

[Cady Goldfield]

Thanks for that update reminder, Guy.
Many of us knew that Phil Relnick had been officially given permission to teach, but I'd neglected to note that outdated comment in the 1999 Guelph Sword Forum post by Meik Skoss.

[Gene Williams]

Well, I started this whole thing by reporting my experience with Lovret. I got the information I needed from Dan and Nathan. I have no reason to believe they are just making things up or lying. I believe they are correct in their assessments of this situation. I happen to know Mr. Snider. He is a very good Okinawan karate practitioner who sometimes argues to the point that he appears less intelligent than he is. I believe that he would argue with a goat...he wants to believe...that is dangerous. I believe that the orthodox martial arts, especially those such as kenjutsu and aikido, but also karate if studied diligently for years, lead to a point at which they are pursued for tranquility and spiritual development. This does not diminish their combat effectiveness (indeed, I believe it enhances it), merely makes it a by product of a different goal. Why pursue such things in a ryu that is so fraught with controversy, and about which one can never be sure? The lineage is important...it is reassuring to know that you are doing the same things that others have done in the same way for centuries, and that there is a common language and a common body of knowledge that, if it has changed shape or direction, has done so for reasons that remain within the banks of the same stream. Thanks, everyone, for your responses which have really been helpful. Mr. Snider, don't you have some kata to practice? Gene

[Brian Griffin]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
The lineage is important...

To some people, certainly, but not to everyone...and that's OK.
There are plenty of excellent martial artists, who are wonderful people & great teachers, but have little or no "pedigree." That's no problem.

The problem lies in:
claiming a lineage to which you have no right, and/or
inventing a false lineage, and representing it as true.

People who do these things are liars.

I would not trust such a person very far, nor would I choose one as my sensei.

You are free to disagree.