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Thread: SCARS

  1. #16
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    I've seen the SCARS tapes...the horror...the horror...

    Lousy techniques (really over the top) demonstrated poorly (off balance, poor positioning, etc.), and repeated in slo-mo to take up tape space. Very bad, only made worse by the ultra-seriousness of his ads and tone during the tape.

    Hope this illuminates the issue.

    Later

  2. #17
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    Grappler,

    Welcome to our humble forum! Glad to have you. Can you be a little more specific as to what you saw on the tape?

    Also, please sign your real name to your posts - it is E-budo policy.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  3. #18
    Michael Morning Guest

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    Grappler,

    Regarding the SCARS videos, I just happen to have run across a friend who loaned me his set and I'm in the process of reviewing them now. Unlike The Grappler, I believe the SCARS videos have quite a bit of merit. No, they aren't the traditional textbook movements everyone works to perfect in class. They're made for the novice, everyday man/woman off the street to retrain their minds and bodies to be more offensive in responding to the dangers of the street. And yes, the movements are rather straight forward and, at times, simplistic (though others would require a great deal of practice for a non-martial artist to perform).

    Most everything is geared for BANG, BANG, BANG, BANG striking with a little grappling thrown in here and there. Most scenarios that I watched were finished with varying final strikes (as in lethal blows). Having said this, Peterson was quite clear on individuals needing to know to actively chose to take someone's life or otherwise choose something less lethal (with examples demonstrated). He obviously wasn't trying to turn out a bunch of mindless assassins, but was rather trying to get people into a THINKING, take-charge attitude that could handle a violent comflict (whereas the bulk of average people - even some with training - would freeze up or do the wrong thing if mentally unprepared for conflict).

    The thing about SCARS, though, is that it proves the old saying that it's the easiest things that work. It may not be pretty, but it gets the job done. The street fighter willing to jump in your face and duke it out will win over the traditionally-trained, classroom martial arts jockey with all his/her complicated movements 99% of the time. SCARS' primary goal is to get people into the mode of offensive fighting rather than defensive fighting. This type of take-charge attitude is what wins the day, not the perfection of classroom technique.

    Beyond all this, I would have to take Peterson at his word from the standpoint that he is ex-military and has the background to back up what he's teaching (as opposed to a sheltered martial arts instructor without real-world experience - and that would include "ring fighting"). If I had one complaint about his system, it would have to be concerning the soundeffects he makes when striking. I think the various vocalizations are all a bit silly, but that's just my opinion.

    As a last point of interest, from what I've read, the videos are really just primers to the advanced training offered through actual SCARS instruction. I would imagine that this training would be the ultimate litmus test for the system as a whole, as opposed to saying it's "good" or "bad" just from the basic tape set.



    [Edited by Michael Morning on 09-13-2000 at 12:23 PM]

  4. #19
    ericDZR Guest

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    thanks for the review michael. like i said in an earlier post, the "offensive mind set" sounds like a good idea. but i guess what has turned me off most is the way the program is presented/advertised, but everyone has to make a living somehow. i'm currently trying to find a set of tapes to review as well. i'm also interested in what their "compression fighting" techniques are. thanks again.

  5. #20
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    Simplistic? Yes. Effective, maybe. Goofy hair and slow motion "I AM IRONMAN" (for you Black Sabbath fans) style sound effects? Absolutely.

    My problem isn't so much with the techniques, but rather the notion that what he teaches is "secret SEAL super-ninja" style that could kill and make you 100% effective. Check out the rather humerous review at (http://www.altinet.net/~karate/scars2.htm) for a an excellent assessment of these tapes.

    In actually, the techniques are nothing special. A few punches mixed with a few basic kicks, and just a tad of grappling (my speciality). Unfortunately, many are done "bar-fightin' style" (looping haymakers, straight-legged roundhouse kicks, off-balance throws, etc.). I would just normally dismiss such a set of tapes as another mook slapping together a few combinations and calling himself a master. But the full page adds in several magazines, week long $5K seminars, and the serious fighter he takes himself to be just makes me irritated. And the half-truths about training elite special forces piss me off (I'm a civilian employee for the Navy, and I interact with these kind of snake-eaters).

    Save your money.

    --A. Murray

  6. #21
    Michael Morning Guest

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    I agree completely with what the Grappler mentioned about being irritated about Peterson suggesting that what he teaches is sooooo much better than anything else. There's too many similar schools in existence which say the same things - and they, too, are as equally wrong. In giving the benefit of the doubt (since I haven't seen or experienced first-hand live training with him), I'm sure much of what Peterson does and HAS done is far superior to anything specifically laid out in the tapes. I understand he does quite a bit of work with SWAT teams and similar military units, so obviously his skills go well beyond simple empty-hand fighting.

    As a final note, I wanted to comment on one thing The Grappler reminded me of: in the tapes there ARE a lot of "haymaker" type punches thrown. By this I mean strikes which are thrown after being pulled back over your shoulder like your average bar-brawler. Obviously this piss-poor telegraphing of strikes is not only unnecessary but silly and dangerous as well. In Peterson's favor is the concept of hitting with the entire body (not just the shoulder or hips). This is a primary tenent of ninpo - and produces some seriously powerful results far superior to normal Karate-like striking. However, ninpo is smart enough to teach people to strike this way from any position and without telegraphing the movement like a beacon in a dark room. Seems like a curious oversight on Peterson's part.


  7. #22
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    Many "become a killer real quick" programs specialize in defense against unskilled fighters. This sounds like what you all are describing. It also sounds like you are describing nothing special. But then again, that's the fallacy behind training tapes.


    Michael's comment: "This is a primary tenent of ninpo - and produces some seriously powerful results far superior to normal Karate-like striking."

    I understand where you are coming from, however it is also a primary tenent in karate (at least the styles I studied). Good karate training teaches the same development of power in a punch; it all starts at the floor, not at the hips. Hips, shoulders, wrists, every part of the body have to be integrated with each other and the surface you are standing on. This is the gospel of punching according to my Wado and Shuri Ryu instructors.

    Jeff Cook
    Wabujitsu

  8. #23
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    Default Know them by their fruits

    First post on E-budo. Love this discussion Board!

    SEAL’s: Say you trained, trained with, or saw a SEAL training and you have instant credibility in many minds. Good marketing plan!

    I understand that the Naval Special Warfare community has placed as much distance as possible between themselves and Mr. Peterson. He is not the first, nor will he be the last.

    One only needs to read the bombastic ads associated with the group to arrive at a logical conclusion. I understand the need for advertising, but...

    I have had some contact with SCARS and SAFTA as a member of the Naval Special Warfare Community. I was active-duty at SEAL Team One and spent quite a few years as a reservist on the West Coast. Honor Graduate of BUD/s class #105 for those of you who will be checking.

    I am a trainer and director of the Sure-Fire Institute that works with law-enforcement and military clients. See http://surefire.com/institute.htm for more data. Anyway, I am not an operator anymore, so I humbly approach this topic.

    From the law-enforcement point of view, SCARS has to be out for most. Just the name alone has to be a juicy target for some civil rights attorney. Very little ability to regulate force, an in my mind this is a critical short-coming with dealing with John Q. Public and his brother standing there with a video camera.

    Most military units don't place a lot of emphasis on combatives as they have belt-fed machineguns and things that go boom. But in today’s low-intensity conflict scenarios, Close Quarter Combat is a valid concern and some units spend the time developing "systems" that meet mission requirements. We just finished a course with a U.S Army Special Forces Group and combatives was one of the training blocks. They are still open and willing to adopt principles and techniques germane to their mission. This is in stark contrast to an almost cult-like following found in some SCARS advocates. Keep in mind we are not talking about street fighting with "Tank" Abbott. These guys will find themselves in situations where they are wearing a lot of gear, helmets, body armor, low-light conditions, uneven terrain, projectile based threats and many other environmental factors.

    I first came in contact with SCARS as a reservist when it was the "buzz" around the community. I met a few guys who had taken the SCARS course(s) when they were first being presented. For the most part the graduating students seemed to believe that what they had learned was undefeatable. IMHO a dangerous mental position. It is great to have a powerful, decisive, positive mental attitude, but please temper it with reality. As one looks around at any physical/mental activity that men attempt to conquer, 40 hours just doesn’t cut it… I can defend myself against most after years of training. But the reality is there are many, many who can defeat me in H2H combat, plain and simple. I train and hope I don't run into them in a lethal force confrontation. Odds are I won't and for that I am grateful.

    While working for the Federal Government as a program director for Shipboard Security, I ran into a proponent of SAFTA who was telling me that ALL people ALWAYS react in certain ways to certain stimulus, a pillar of his system, as I understand it. He then attempted to physically demonstrate the principle by shoving me as hard as he could in the chest while at the same time stating that I would put a foot back. As he shoved, I executed a basic sword turn found in the Yanagi ryu curriculum. It is one the first things you need to understand and apply to successfully evade sword strikes and facilitate dropping people to the ground. My feet were still in place, and he as completely off-balance, ripe for a counter. I was and still consider myself a novice in Aiki JuJutsu. So went the theory that ALL and ALWAYS can be found in close quarter engagements.

    With a puzzled look on his face, he asked what I did and I tried to explain that it comes from a system that has its foundation in edged weapon conflict. The individual quickly interrupted and stated that “knives are !!!!!!!! to us, we treat them as hands attached to the arm”...A truly scientific analysis. When he finished his monologue, I felt humbled as I had met Jesus Christ Incarnate prior to his Second Coming. This individual can also be found in similar ads of the SCARS variety.

    I have posted on: http://www.aikidojournal.com/ubb/For...ML/000213.html as to the effectiveness of Yanagi ryu strategy and techniques when employed by a skillful practitioner with a bit more than 40 hours of training.

    To be perfectly honest, I am not sure what the relationship of SCAR/SAFTA is but there are striking similarities in its advocates.

    The good news maybe that SCARS, SAFTA and similar systems might be well-suited for inculcating an aggressive mind-set and never die attitude to young lads in compressed timeframes. Trainees leave with a high level of confidence and basic plan of attack. Most plans are better than none.

    On the other hand, instilling a sense of invincibility can lead to foolhardiness. I selected Naval Special Warfare as a community because of the strategies and missions, and left attacking machine-guns on fortified hills to the immortals. It was a longer more difficult road, but worth it.

    The more difficult weapons based arts involve traveling down a similar road. Outcomes of weapons-based, multiple adversary fights from my viewpoint favor those with the greater sense of balance, sensitivity and awareness over one-dimensional aggressiveness. I have observed over the years that those with an overly aggressive/ballistic mind-sets tend not to fair well in projectile-based training/operational situations. Bullets doesn’t really care what is on your chest; SWAT, SEAL, SPEC this or that. They just fly and comply to the immutable laws of physics. It is much better to blend and outthink your opponent, adopting the effective strategies of the Aiki principles. Allow or cause your opponent to overextend in mind and body, and then cut them down with your weapon.

    I have quite a few e-mails from folks that I have trained attesting to this. I would like to think that the approach we are presenting actually saves lives and puts bad guys away. As effective as our training is, it could never approach the 100 percentile. You can only increase your odds of prevailing in a lethal-force environment. The rest is what I term “the Grace of God Factor”. Face it, no matter how invincible you may believe you are, you will more likely than not need the benefit and immediate support of others when multiple opponents have weapons than can kill from a distance. It is not about you anymore, it is about us. SCARS seems to be "I" centered from this vantage point.

    In closing, (finally!) I have met a few of the SCARS instructors at some of the SPEC OPS trade shows I have attended. They were always extremely helpful and friendly, the same could not be said for Mr. Peterson himself.

    I would like to have the opportunity to discuss the merits of this or that technique, principle and training methodology in an intelligent manner with him personally.

    I would love to change my opinion of the SCARS approach as it resides in the negative.

    Respectfully,

    Ken J. Good






    [Edited by kenjgood on 09-20-2000 at 02:05 AM]

  9. #24
    Kit LeBlanc Guest

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    Ken,

    Good to see you on this forum!!

    Chris LeBlanc

  10. #25
    Rhomyn Escalante Guest

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    Ahhhh! E-Budo scores big-time! Ken Good's "Welcome to the Real World" editorial comments should be posted on all MA, LE, and Military forums cyberspace wide. And someone with an ounce of sense should have him do an article in a legitmate magazine along the lines of his comments above!

  11. #26
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    If Mr. Good wishes to publish something, JNonLethal at http://ejmas.com stands ready to publish it.

  12. #27
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    Thumbs up

    Good comments Ken and welcome, unfortunately though the type of people you describe are far more widespread than SCARS, there are many CQC and MA instructors that fit the same bill.

    Look forward to more from you.

    Regards

    Neil
    Neil Hawkins
    "The one thing that must be learnt but
    cannot be taught is understanding"

  13. #28
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    Hey Ken,

    Great Post! That was very well written.

    Hope all is going well with you. Sorry I won't be seeing you later this month but I will see you at the end of November.

    Take it easy,

    Toby Threadgill

  14. #29
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    Mega Ditto's Ken, and welcome to E-budo.

    While I have no military experience to speak of, I have seen the original HCS tapes featuring Mr. Peterson, and from my perspective (as a Daito-ryu AJJ practitioner) I agree with your assessment completely. For all the claims in those multi-page ads, there's really nothing new, unique or undefeatable on those tapes.


    Brently Keen


  15. #30
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    Default Marketing

    As an Aikido teacher and Police Defensive Tactics Instructor I have encountered a number of law enforcement / military training systems that purport to be "scientific". This is usually don to create the impression that the system being studied is not "martial arts" which require lengthy training and are made out to be too complex for teaching to personnel in a short-term situation.

    What you encounter in these systems is:
    a) A teacher who learned his techniques the same way the rest of us have i.e. the martial arts
    b) A teacher who is a master at creating western scientific sounding terms to describe the concepts he has learned through his martial arts, military, law enforcement experience.
    c) A teacher who understands the concept of the "Giffen Good" in microeconomics. That is an item that has a reverse demand curve in which the more it costs, the greater the demand. The creators of these systems invariably charge a price for their services that is far in excess of what the norm would be in their field.

    Now this doesn't mean that the stuff is not good. Tony Blauer is a fine example of a quality product. It is expensive but is probably worth the price. Just remember that what you are paying for is Tony taking his martial arts experience, using his creative brainpower to play with different ways to train, and his incomparable ability to develop new vocabulary. The latter is most important because in this field you have to convince the administrators to hire you so you need to sound really cool. Use all the current buzzwords. It's all packaging.

    There are plenty of folks around who know the same things. Peterson's claims that the Russians stole the Systema techniques from the SCARS system is laughable. What you notice about most of them is that they are broke. What separates the successful from the broke martial artist is marketing. Blauer, Petersen, Siddel etc. are guys who had the smarts to take their knowledge and repackage it so that it looked different from what everybody else was doing. People pay fantastic amounts of money to do these systems. Spending a lot of time being pissed off at them is like being pissed off at Billy Blanks for being smart enough to realize that there were a whole bunch of people that wanted to do martial arts without the "martial". Now he is a millionaire and we're not.

    All of these guys offer a good product. I'd be happy to do any of these systems if I could get somebody else to pay for it. Just don't believe all the hype. Especially in Petersen's case it is exaggeration to the point of untruthfulness. At least you don't hear Tony Blauer spending all his time claiming that everybody else's stuff is dog doo and if someone else is doing something right he must have stolen it from him.


    [Edited by George Ledyard on 10-13-2000 at 09:06 AM]
    George S. Ledyard
    Aikido Eastside
    Defensive Tactics Options
    Bellevue, WA

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