SCARS

[Michael Morning]

Didn't it used to be "location, location, location"? Now it's "marketing, marketing, marketing" since the internet is the best location anyone could possibly have (i.e. a storefront open to the world).

Major point taken regarding "buzzwords". Anything which is stated as "new" seems to take on a life of its own regardless of any inherent quality. Tae Bo, as one example, is NOTHING new under the sun - either to aerobic conditioning OR martial arts. As noted, it's marketing not quality.

Regarding SCARS: a punch is still a punch, a kick is still a kick. Nothing new. The two primary points I would suggest taking away from the videos is (1) the offensive mindset/mental retraining and (2) the simplicity and flow of offensive technique arranged in such a way as to overwhelm and devastate your opponent. Either of these points can be taken and used with whatever anyone is currently doing for martial arts training. The SCARS videos are merely a bunch of drills which put these points to work. Nothing overtly superior, just another way of doing the same thing. 'Course it wouldn't sell as well if Peterson didn't say it was "better" than everything else available

I guess the lesson to learn here would be that the martial arts is just one more arena where we all need to be intelligent and educated consumers. Compare "labels", do the research, use your eyes and a healthy dose of common sense before paying your money (thankfully I didn't buy the SCARS tapes - I dubbed them from a friend...WHEW!).

[James Williams]

Gentlemen,

Please excuse my late post on this topic. To compare the S.C.A.R.S training to Systema is as absurd as the claims that they make in their ads. To say that Systema took portions of S.C.A.R.S. training is ignorant at best. We are looking at two completely different operating systems here. Systema being at the outer limits of technical sophistication and function and S.C.A.R.S being extremely simplistic. I am very impressed with Systema, it is far and away the best system taught to military units at this point in time. We can only wish that US troops could get invoved in a program this functional and complete.

[Juan Perez]

"Jerry Peterson, who founded SCARS in 1987, yelled with military urgency. He served in the 173rd Airborne Charlie Company in Vietnam"

This is fom the "Mens Health" article.

I wonder how true it is??
My dad was with the 173rd Headquarters 66/67
and he told me that at that time all of Charlie Company was
either killed or severly injured.
Joe Stitz

Actually, the US Army's Unit Status Reporting criteria designates a unit as non-mission capable (NMC), or virtually "destroyed" if it has only 70% of its junior soldiers (E4 - E1) and 65% of its senior soldiers (E5 - and up) available. At this level, the unit would be considered a P-5 (not even close to being ready to accomplish its mission for lack of personnel) and an overall C-5 (the worst possible combat readiness rating). Just a bit of "Jeopardy" trivia, but it might shed light on Mr. Stitz' statement.

[Rhomyn Escalante]

In your dreams Peterson. There is nothing of SCARS in Systemia.

Mr. Perez. Throw your book away. USR criteria is somethng for the PIO to send to college ROTC wannabes. Hey, I'm on a roll with acronyms! There was no Army Airborne line unit, in Vietnam, that was ever above 70%! 70% was what you hoped for on a perfect day. And there were no perfect days. Army Airborne units functioned below that so often it became the norm. In my esteemed position of filling in for the Company Clerk when he went on R&R, I did the morning reports. I saw units so under strength that they pulled 'legs' from all over II Corp to fill slots! And still didn't go past 70%! Legs! In an Airborne slot. Oh the shame.!

[Juan Perez]

Mr. Escalante,

1. If you read what I wrote carefully, it does explain that it was "Just a bit of "Jeopardy" trivia, but it might shed light on Mr. Stitz' statement." I didn't promise it would solve whatever issue you seem to have with what Mr. Stitz, or anyone else, said. I, for one, am not learned in the order of battle in the Vietnam conflict to speak intelligently of who was there, when or how. If my comment didn't shed any light, then, oh well "suck it up and drive on."

2. Also, I resent the statement on the ROTC wannabes. All three of the current general officers serving in the 10th Mountain Division are a product of ROTC. All, but one of them, have seen combat (to include Southeast Asia) and the one that did not was a troop commander in the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment- Delta (Delta Force) and has seen conflict that cannot be written about. The last infantry Task Force commander I worked for, also an ROTC graduate, has been in actual combat three times, to include two combat jumps with the Ranger Regiment. Oh, and did I forget LTC Steele who saw combat in the streets of Somalia, another ROTC graduate and currently a battalion commander in the 10th?

3. USR criteria, is currently the measure utilized in THE ENTIRE ARMY (FORSCOM and other unified commands) to gauge combat unit readiness... it is not a perfect system, but is the only one we've got. This is the report that the Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman gets on his desk every month. I am sorry if that fact is unintelligeble to you, but... it is a fact. One good point that a friend brought up to me yesterday evening was that no such type of report may have been used during the '60s or 70's anyway, so there goes my theory (oh, well )

4. Finally, about your comment on "Legs! In an Airborne slot. Oh the shame.!" First of all, it is common historical knowledge that airborne jumps were not very much, if at all utilized, during the Vietnam conflict by US forces (it is hard enough to get the pilots to drop you away from the trees in Fryar DZ in Bragg, imagine trying that in the jungle). I am sure "Mr 7.62mm" did not care what "tabs" that US soldier had on his chest when it impacted crushing bone and tearing flesh. I am Airborne and Ranger qualified, but I don't let pride become arrogance; at least not when all it does is create division among soldiers. An old, "crusty", combat experienced SGM told me once: "Tabs don't mean shit!" (and he had them all)... I think he was wise.

5. Finally, ROTC graduates comprise (and it nearly always has) over 70% of all US Army officers, many of whom died in Vietnam as platoon leaders. I like to respect their memory. I know enough not to generalize regarding NCOs or Officers because God only knows I have seen, and have been told about, both making numerous (and in some cases, hilarious) mistakes (because we are human).

6. Have a nice day

[Rhomyn Escalante]

I have been brutally admonished. I will take it in stride and as Mr. Perez suggests, I will "suck it up and drive on". I have learned my lesson. Wait! No! I am coming back. Yes I think I'll stay the white flag, jack another round into the chamber and take another crack at a by product of the 10th Mountain.

You may resent anything you want. But don't read anything into my comments that weren't there. A ROTC 'wannabe' darlin' ain't the same as an O on line. Nice try. Let him get his O, go on line and then you can compare him to the rest of your heroes. I don't care what the JCS Chair gets on his desk every month, but I do care what he has above his wings, and what he's got stapled to his wifes favorite BBQ . Don't throw SFOD-D at me in anything you write. You don't know anyones first name. Sorry about your theory going 'Oh Well'. Lastly you're taking your crusty old SGM comments out of context, and I wasn't even there when was nurse maiding you.

RE-read my posts, and then you may apologize.
And in the interest of Airborne Brotherhood, I accept your apology in advance!

[scoundrel]

The SGM's comment was definitely taken out of context. Ask any long-tabber if he values his. Or ask anybody that's ever had a scroll on his left shoulder if his ain't worth sh*t.

There are excellent soldiers in every different kind of unit, but let's face some hard facts:

1. Not all men were created equal.

2. Some units are more equal than others (even in the new army of one).

Nothing wrong with a little unit pride (especially when it's deserved )

Peace

Steve

[scoundrel]

The SGM's comment was definitely taken out of context. Ask any long-tabber if he values his. Or ask anybody that's ever had a scroll on his left shoulder if his ain't worth sh*t.

There are excellent soldiers in every different kind of unit, but let's face some hard facts:

1. Not all men were created equal.

2. Some units are more equal than others(even in the new army of one).

Nothing wrong with a little unit pride (especially when it's deserved )

Peace,

Steve

[Juan Perez]

Sir,

I will put it to you this way:

Since I don't know you, I will continue to refer to you as "Sir" and I will refrain from using "darling" or any other terms of endearment.

I will agree to disagree on whatever points we seem not to see eye to eye on.

As for the SGM nurse maiding me. Yes, exactly, and I welcomed it because part of my job is to learn and part of his is to teach.

Were his comments out of context? It would make no sense to argue that as only I was there. And you might be right about what you said... maybe he meant exactly what you wrote... who knows.

I will refrain to engage in an argumentative tone here because this is how these threads become useless. On top of that it leads, very often, to people becoming highly disrespectful with others, which is not productive and is easy to do when separated by fiber optic cables. Besides, I have great respect for the fact that you served and were "there."

So, thank you for the exchange you afforded me; I even learned from it. But, no apology is necessary here. So you will receive none from me. Have a nice day.

Now back to the SCARS issue.

[Rhomyn Escalante]

"Darlin'" was good enough for Victor McLaughlin when he was speaking to John Wayne. Now I ain't Victor McLaughlin and you ain't John Wayne, but anytime two paratroopers can't get together and see who can throw a road apple the farthest, it is a sad day.

SCARS is a terrible system. It is sold to a market that is very unsophisticated. But the market is at risk (often in harms way) and has a tendency to buy razzle dazzle solutions. I do not think that is good. I think that is bad. I do not know Jerry Peterson. The only conection I have with him is that he served in the same unit I did. But I know it is the responsiblity of any 'manufacturer' to remove his product from the shelf when it is no longer viable. But they don't, they leave it on the shelf as long as some sucker buys it. There are still suckers out there, and as the man said, "One is born every minute"!

Respectfully, Rho Escalante.

[Kit LeBlanc]

If anyone doubts Rhomyn's last assertion RE: SCARS pick up the latest issue of Reality Fighting, one of the supermarket martial arts rag offshoots (BB or IKF I can't remember). Its got Krav Maga on the cover.

Take a look at the techniques they are showing in the SCARS article. The technique pictured on the opening page of the article shows a lot about what they "know."

Judge for yourself.

Kit

[Juan Perez]

Mr. Escalante:

You did mention something called Systemia (or Systema). I have never heard of this form of fighting. Could you shed some info on it? Is there a website I can get a hold of it? I have done some search engine inquiries, but to no avail. Thanks.

[Rhomyn Escalante]

I am the wrong guy to discuss this. Ask James Williams at Bugei. Go to their forum (bugei.com) and leave a msg for him in the CQB topic. I can tell you it is 13th or 14th century Russian. It is deep. Very deep. There is a couple of guys here at ebudo that know of it. Toby Threadgil. Ken Good. Kit LeBlanc I think. These guys are the ones to talk to.

[Walker]

Systema is the general name for a group of Russian martial arts that have some military (and political) connections. They say they originate in the 15th cent, but we’ve seen other claims like that. They differ from Sambo which originates in judo and seem to have Chinese elements. I read an article at one point that I think accurately describes it as a combat tai chi looking animal. Uses a lot of rolling pelvis movement and whipping rotational arm work. Interesting to watch. I think the two major reps over here are ROSS in America and Systema in Toranto. Ross has a web site www.AMERROSS.com
and Systema www.russianmartialart.com

[Orpheus]

Hello, everyone,

My name's Steve Baroody and I've been reading E-budo for the last three or four months. For the record, this is the best martial arts fourm I've found online, although I am a bit biased towards the Japanese martial arts. I haven't posted because anything I would have added to the discussion was being said better by people with more experience than I. However, this thread has presented an opportunity where I may contribute something of value. I've been doing martial arts for fourteen years and hold shodan ranks in aikijujutsu, kenjutsu, and karate (I realize that dan ranks aren't usually given in aikijujutsu and kenjutsu, but my instructor decided to shift to the kyu-dan system). I'm giving you my background not to toot my own horn, but so you know where I'm coming from when I comment on Scars.

I haven't been to any of the live training (cost prohibitive), but I've spent more than I care to admit on Scars tapes and trained the principles for four years. Like many of you who've posted on this thread, I have some problems with the way the system is marketed, but I have greater problems with the dogmatic stance exhibited by many practitioners. It is a position where nothing useful is to be found anywhere else, and questioning is seen as a threat.

Although I have no real-world experience, from my understanding of traditional martial arts, I believe Scars to be an extremely effective fighting system. I ase this assertion on it's two primary principles. The first, which has already been mentioned, is the Offensive Mindset. This is a concept that I believe to actually be one of the most advanced principles in many martial arts. If someone throws a punch at you, they are offering you a target. Since they believe they're about to hurt you, it comes as a great shock when they themselves are injured. You can then take advantage of the lapse this causes in their concentration and injure them further, with a progressive deterioration in both their mental and physical ability to do you harm. Furthermore, (and this part I'd really like to test, perhaps in a Panic Attack drill) they say that by concentrating exclusively on your own action, you can prevent the adrenaline dump that will rob you of your fine and complex motor skills, as well as make you extremely telegraphic.

The second principle, which I've already delved into a bit, is that people have predictable reactions to trauma. I realize that this subject is controversial, but I think it's rooted in biology and physics. If you hit me full power, to the nose , the energy of that collision has to go somewhere. In terms of physics, the vector of that force is extremely predictable, provided that angle of attack and amount of force are same each time. On top of that, the body has an instinctive reflex to withdraw from harm, as evidenced by pulling the hand off the hot stove before we know we're touching it. Now in real life, are the force and the angle going to be exactly the same? Of course not. However, there's enough similarity in how similar parts of the body react that you can, to a reasonable degree, bank on it. And, in fact, it's the Offensive Mindset that allows you to, because the more times you attack, the more likely you are to actually hit your targets, and the more attacks your opponent will have to contend with.

I hope I've added something to this discussion, and look forward to your comments.

Regards,

Steve Baroody