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Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:20.
Nathan Scott
Nichigetsukai
"Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."
- Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)
Interesting stuff Mr Scott. I wish Hiden was available in English, or that my Japanese was up to the task.
It is a good article for those who think JMA are static, and shows that at that time people were really interested in looking at the common arts of the day--who might issue a challenge. At least that's one thing I get out of it.
I wonder if DRAJ might put some counters to BJJ or whatever is the rage. Heh. Just kidding.
Last edited by nicojo; 17th October 2005 at 02:40.
J. Nicolaysen
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"I value the opinion much more of a grand master then I do some English professor, anyways." Well really, who wouldn't?
We're all of us just bozos on the budo bus and there's no point in looking to us for answers regarding all the deep and important issues.--M. Skoss.
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Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:20.
Nathan Scott
Nichigetsukai
"Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."
- Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)
Just a quick correction. Sato Kinbei was never a student of Hoshi Sadakichi. His line was:Originally Posted by Nathan Scott
Hoshi Sadakichi - Takahashi Hikokichi - Suzuki Heikichi - Suzuki Sensaku - Sato Kinbei
and
Hoshi Sadakichi - Takahashi Hikokichi - Kato Hikokichi - Suzuki Sensaku - Sato Kinbei.
George Kohler
Genbukan Kusakage dojo
Dojo-cho
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Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:20.
Nathan Scott
Nichigetsukai
"Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."
- Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)
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Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:20.
Nathan Scott
Nichigetsukai
"Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."
- Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)
Nathan,
Was there anything in the article about basic conditioning methods in Yagyu Shingan Ryu?
Thanks
Tim Fong
Nathan - I think I was chief among the scoffers, and remain so.
- Perhaps the equivalent, today, would be a gangster trying to harm the mayor of Los Angeles. LEO would be the hatamoto. Would you or any of your colleagues do anything less than the most expedient actions to protect him?
- I took a close protection officer course several years ago. If one's principal was under threat of attack, we, among other things, tackled him and carted him away like a sack of potatoes.
Anyway, I actually believe that such "Gyoi-dori" existed in some ryu's curriculum, just as is written. What it actually establishes, in my opinion, is that the daimyo et al were under no significant threat nor had they been for hundreds of years. Therefore, such mannered ideas arose.
Given that, in fact, the uncultivated rural warriors were, on the whole, far more effective fighters - as shown in Meiji, AND, given that, in the Edo period, farmers using rakes and hoes regularly routed bushi armed with swords who had to retreat to the armories to get guns to drive them back, I think that Gyoi-dori was probably practiced by the same type of individual who writes the articles in Hiden.
On the other hand, the parts of your thesis re YSR studying with Takeda and the idea that swordsmen went to him to get the knowledge re jujutsu that they lacked makes a lot of sense.
Regards
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Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:21.
Nathan Scott
Nichigetsukai
"Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."
- Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)
Dear Nathan and posters,
In our upcoming book we will publish a long excerpt of Takeda Sokaku's eimeroku translated in English. There actually is registered at the year 33 of the Meiji Era a Tanosaki Uemon written as master of Yagyu Shingan-ryu, who participated to Takeda's lessons with 6 of his students.
While this is true, it doesn't mean absolutely anything: surely not that Yagyu Shingan-ryu was influenced by Daito-ryu simply because ONE teacher attended a Seminar!
In any case, if we'd ever consider THAT as an influence, we may well say that almost ALL the Koryus and gendai budo present in Japan were influenced by Daito-ryu, since among Sokaku's students registered in the eimerokus are martial artists from Kendo, Karate, Judo, at least 3-4 Itto-ryu branches, 2-3 Yagyu derived arts, Kito-ryu, Tenshin Shin'yo ryu, etc. etc. etc.
The one fact you can derive from these registers, is that for sure Takeda Sokaku was REALLY a remarkable person and a true martial genius, if so many practitioners, students, teachers and also kaiden-level people of that many arts wanted to attend one or more of his lessons.
Best regards,
Giacomo Merello
Giacomo Merello
That's interesting. I was jsut talking about this last night with a few folks. It recently dawned on me that due to the seminar nature of Takeda's teaching, it would be very unlikely that totally inexperienced folks would attend. Much like seminars today, a vast majority of those going through the trouble to attend are already experienced in some art, even if it's not the art in question. Anyway, I'd look forward to reading the eimeroku to see how many/few people came to the art without experience in some other art. Personally I feel this would go a long way in explaining how so many of the early students of Takeda and Ueshiba were by all accounts quite talented while each subsuqent generation less so. If the art was initially disseminated more like a continuing education series or PhD self study, adapting that kind of information for brand new students would be asking a lot of the relatively junior instructors tasked with spreading the art.Originally Posted by judasith
Christian Moses
**Certified Slimy, Moronic, Deranged and Demented Soul by Saigo-ha Daito Ryu!**
Student of:
Shinto Ryu Iai-Battojutsu
Tuesday Night Bad Budo Club (TM)
Yukiyoshi Sagawa remarked repeatedly about how difficult it was to find people to attend those seminars because of the high costs involved. The usual pattern would be that Takeda would come into town (in this case accompanied by Sagawa). settle himself at an inn, and then send Sagawa around to recruit students for a seminar. In many cases they would target the local police because they were (a) interested in the martial arts and (b) able to afford Takeda's fees since the government would be footing the bill.Originally Posted by chrismoses
The interesting thing about Sagawa's accounts (apart from confirmation of Takeda's fee structures) was that Takeda (or his proxy) apparently recruited for his seminars very aggressively - not surprising, since they were his bread and butter. I would think that the high fees would deter most people without some kind of interest in the martial arts.
Best,
Chris
I think this is an important historical pattern to consider whenever folks consider using the MA as a potential career move. I have often stated that the MA instruction was never intended as an actual career and far too often folks seem to need to modify their material in deference to the whims of the buying public. Though it is rarely mentioned I think we need to give increased credence to the patronage many teachers may have enjoyed from patriotic and well-heeled supporters. Failing this, there is also the matter tha many folks who have sought to promote or perpetuate authentic traditions have been forced to do so more as an avocation rather than a vocation.
Or, as we say here in the States, "don't quit yer day job!"
Best Wishes,
Bruce
Bruce W Sims
www.midwesthapkido.com
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Last edited by Nathan Scott; 10th June 2014 at 23:21.
Nathan Scott
Nichigetsukai
"Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."
- Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)
Hello all. I wanted to say that I'm new to the board, and have found what I've learned so far very enlightening. I study AJJ in Arizona, and have heard many great things about Sensei Nathan, and am excited to be on this forum