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Thread: Daito ryu Goshinkai/ Jose Garrido

  1. #31
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by jonesin
    Mr. Robison, please elaborate where you feel I may be assuming something. Because I tend to try not to make an a_s out of myself (doesn't always work though). Please, enlighten me.
    Chris hit the nail on the head, basically. That is all, nothing more. I was a friendly word of caution.

    Per my understanding, what Chris said about Conti is correct that Conti had trained under K. Yonezawa and T. Shimpo when they visited N.J. Back in the mid 70's I think. A person you might also contact is Tim Tung who is with Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Bokuyokan. I was told by a sourse he also learned from T. Shimpo in the 70's. Tim Tung may have trained with T. Shimpo in Japan as well, and T. Tung may have more accurate information of T. Shimpo. I can't verify that as fact, but I think it is a good bet. Also Roy Goldberg ( Kodo kai ), and Migel Ibarra (Aikijujutsu & Yamabushi ) are similar sources as they know Conti and all where training Daito ryu at the same time. All three men received instruction from T. Shimpo back in the 70's. I found this out with a little Web Surfing, and poking around via the net.


    Good luck

  2. #32
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    Pardon me Kohlersan, o great ruler of the forum. Please aceept my humble apologies...my knuckles are still stinging from the ruler ;-)
    Rick Jones
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    Nichi nichi kore kojitsu
    Every Day is a Good Day!

  3. #33
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    Thanks Jack for the clarification. I just didnt' understand how I had "assumed" something.

    It is my understanding that Shimbo Sensei is still part of the Kodokai headed by Inoue Sensei, not the Bokuyokan. And if you take a look at the Bokuyokan page, it states that

    Yonezawa, Shihan is succeeded in Bokuyokan by his son Hiromitsu Yonezawa, Soke.

    Mr. Tung or Mr. Franco from their dojo should be able to clarify that more, but I do not believe that their group is associated directly with the Kodokai at this time.

    As far as the representatives go, I have been informed that the North American director is Ken Kiyama, with Roy Goldberg as the Eastern Regional director. Mr. Ibarra doesn't have an association with the Kodokai.

    Enjoy.
    Rick Jones
    _____________
    Nichi nichi kore kojitsu
    Every Day is a Good Day!

  4. #34
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    One of the points I was trying to make is that Shimpo Sensei (or Shimbo) lives in Japan, and at the time the aforementioned people were studying DR here in America, Yonezawa was the direct instructor. Just because a senior teacher comes from Japan and gives seminars (and happens to not have the reputation that Yonezawa now has) does not mean that you are/were his student. Neither does receiving a rank certificate or black belt from him when it was in fact recommended (or written) by Yonezawa. When I asked before about Shimpo/Shimbo Sensei's first name, nobody knew it. It's great they've figured it out, but knowing the name itself is not significant - it was not knowing the first name of someone claimed as a direct instructor.

    As far as this thread goes, and the "shut up and train" idea, I'd just point out that the only reason this thread was started, and came back up again recently, is because of statements made by either Mr. Garrido (on his webpage) or his students. If people like Mr. Garrido would prefer that those on the internet don't talk about them, then they need to be thoughtful of what they put up publicly as well as what they tell their students, who may in turn choose to post them on the internet. That's how it works. I (for one at least) don't just pick on people just because it's fun. All the threads I can remember starting here about a given instructor on this forum were either started by someone asking who they were, or, were posted in response to things the instructors themselves had published on the net or in other media.

    I'm a big fan of training though.
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 2nd July 2006 at 19:01.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  5. #35
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    ...also contact is Tim Tung who is with Daito-Ryu Aikijujutsu Bokuyokan. I was told by a sourse he also learned from T. Shimpo in the 70's. Tim Tung may have trained with T. Shimpo in Japan as well, and T. Tung may have more accurate information of T. Shimpo. I can't verify that as fact, but I think it is a good bet. Also Roy Goldberg ( Kodo kai ), and Migel Ibarra (Aikijujutsu & Yamabushi ) are similar sources as they know Conti and all where training Daito ryu at the same time. All three men received instruction from T. Shimpo back in the 70's. I found this out with a little Web Surfing, and poking around via the net.


    Good luck
    After a friend pointed something out about this post, I mulled it over and decided it was a good idea to point something out.

    For some, reading my post, they may have been abit mislead. Why? Well I didn't mention that T. Shimpo came to the US from Japan for given seminars about 2 or 3 times for a few days each or so, back in the 70's. It may be read as if he was a resident teacher here in the US. It is my understanding he wasn't that is true also for Yonezawa. Yonezawa made more trips to the US then T. Shimpo, and Yonezawa stayed longer up to a week or so at a time. When here Yonezawa traveled alot giving seminars etc. Yonezawa stopped coming to the US in the mid 80's under Kodo kai. And he then resumed in the 90's under his own school. I dont' think Yonezawa was here in the US more then 10 or so times for no more then a week or so between the 70's and 80's. He was doing a lot of traveling at the time as well.

    I agree with Nathan that you have to keep up on your house cleaning and keep the records inorder. There is a lot of people out there who can be resourses for the facts and accuracy about the person Nathan is concerned about. That is why I made mentioned of the likes of Conti, Goldberg, Tung, Ibarra, and others who where at those seminars back then.

    Basically, I am just providing resourses.
    Last edited by Samurai Jack; 5th July 2006 at 17:30.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nathan Scott
    Just because a senior teacher comes from Japan and gives seminars (and happens to not have the reputation that Yonezawa now has) does not mean that you are/were his student.
    But isn't that the relationship of 95% of Daito-ryu practitioners in North America to their teachers, including most of Kondo-sensei's students here? How many people have lived and trained in Daito-ryu in Japan for any length of time? Precious few. At that time, probably none.

    If you don't identify the fellow who comes to NA once or twice a year and to whom you visit from time to time in Japan to give you the stuff to work on who would you identify as being your Daito-ryu teacher then? Who would the senior student of study group connected to the Shinbukan identify as his teacher other than Kondo-sensei? There is not much other choice. I don't see much of a difference here.

    I think that if they have permission to identify someone as one of their teachers they may do so.

    Yonezawa was a legitmate representative of the Kodokai at that time and so I imagine was Shinpo. I would guess that with Yonezawa forming his own organization that the politically correct thing to do would be to identify a teacher that was still within the organization that you have closest affiliations with. This is not how I would do things but I don't think things are necessarily amiss here.

    I've heard rumour that Yonezawa gave out rank too liberally while in the States yet most of the ranks that he gave out to the people in question were 2nd dans to people very experienced in related arts like Hakkoryu and aikido. 1st and 2nd dan continue to be given out quite liberally in Japan by most organizations as these are not advanced grades.

    Ibarra, Goldberg, etc. all seem like competant martial artists to me. At a time when organizations are seeking to expand the art it is probably true that most organizations give out the early grades liberally and become more conservative as the infastructure grows.
    Matthew Rogers
    Scarborough Martial Arts Training Group
    http://www.spiritforging.com

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    Not only that, but the seminar method of training has been used in Daito ryu since it's inception. You train in a seminar, you go home, and work on the material yourself. Then get refinement and hopefully new material at the next seminar. Worked for Takeda and his students (thousands of them?). To what degree? Well, get on the mat and take the ukemi. Only way to know that facet.

    Best,
    Ron

  8. #38
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    Mathew,

    Most organizations keep records of ryu members, and conferred rank should have the signature of the teacher. As a student of Kondo Sensei, I have signed his enrollment book, and all of my certificates have been personally signed and handed to me by Kondo Sensei.

    I don't have any idea how Mr. Yonezawa or Mr. Shimbo or the Kodokai handled such things then or now, but I think if someone asked me who my teacher was, I would say Kondo Sensei. Any other senior member who taught me would be considered my sempai, but not my sensei, unless I had enrolled in their specific dojo.

    Regards,
    Arman Partamian

  9. #39
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    But isn't that the relationship of 95% of Daito-ryu practitioners in North America to their teachers, including most of Kondo-sensei's students here?
    No, the majority of "Daito-ryu" practicitioners in North America are not actually studying orthodox Daito-ryu (search the web)! But seriously, of the ones who are studying legitimately, a number of them have in fact been studying under a Shihan who lives in North America. As far as Kondo Sensei's students here, they are just that. The study groups were started from scratch, with nobody holding significant prior experience with Kondo and no "North American Representative/Chief Instructor" assigned. As such, yes, they are all direct students of Kondo Sensei, because there is no other teacher. Other study groups in America may run by someone with adequate rank or experience in the art, though even in those cases, the fact that it is a "study group" (no qualifed instructor in the dojo) still technically means the members are all students of whoever the qualified teacher is that is overseeing the group.

    As far as the issue of Shimbo Sensei or Yonezawa Sensei, the answer is easy. Yonezawa was the head of the International Division of the Kodokai at the time, and was working here in America. Shimbo Sensei was a senior instructor that came a few times to America to assist with seminars. Yonezawa was in charge of America and foreign affairs during that time, and was the one who recommended (and apparently wrote his own) ranks. As such, those students can not be "students" of Shimbo Sensei when they had a teacher already given the responsibility for the instruction in the area (in this case internationally). The only reason some are trying to get around using Yonezawa's name is because of the dirty laundry that has come out about him, in particular, his issuance of ranks that were not issued/authorized by the Kodokai Honbu. It is misleading at the very least to claim a more senior teacher over your own just because you attended a few seminars with them and simply prefer to use their name for political reasons.

    Regards,
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 9th July 2006 at 06:32.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

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    Not only that, but the seminar method of training has been used in Daito ryu since it's inception.
    FWIW, although you're correct, I'd point out that the handful of students that seem to have gotten any level of inner teachings from Sokaku in fact studied with him on a regular basis outside of the seminars (ie: one on one at a residence or private dojo). Hmmmm....
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #41
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Boy was that a can a worms opened wide open. I am glad Nathan settled it.

    I can see where people who’s who study in the recent study groups and attend seminars feel. It is my understanding that other then the Kodo Kai group all other Daito ryu groups are new to the US. 12 or so years isn't much time, when you compare it to the Kodo Kai which began in the early 1970's. The Kodo Kai isn't a study group any more. They are an official school lead by a Shi-han who has over seen the American school for decades. BTW, you can check those facts on the web very easily. It is my understanding many of those first American students of the Kodo Kai trained for over 20 or more years. For example, take Roy Goldberg, he started in the mid 1980s and still is with the Kodo Kai. It is easy to get upset at what Nathan said, but you have to look at the facts and the big picture. Kondo's study group is still in its infancy. Takuma Kai is in its infancy. Before them, was the off-shoot Kodo kai group of Roppokai, also in its infancy. Kodo Kai is the only Daito Ryu group with an established school and Shi-han, and has been around since the early 1970's. And it survived something that would kill so many other schools. That would be Yonezawa, a leader demonstrating poor leadership and poor scruples that of which Nathan pointed out. But the American Kodo kai survived that and is now a reputable organization, from what I am told.

    If Kondo's or the other new study groups survive as the Kodo Kai has and for as long. And those other groups are able to weather the commericalism of American martial arts, and other non-sense that dominates the American martial arts community, as the Kodo Kai has, then I would say go ahead, wave those fists in the air and yell foul. But, until then I think it is a bit premature to do so. Just the local 2 cents worth, FWIW.

  12. #42
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    Jack,

    I'm sorry, I am a bit confused. Who is crying foul?

    Thanks,
    Arman Partamian

  13. #43
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    Default Roppokai

    Gentlemen,

    Is he calling me an infant ? Mr. Robison, do you study Kodo Kai or are you just a historian ? Just curious.

    Actually sir, the Roppokai has been firmly established in the United States for almost 10 years. The New York Branch has been operating since February 1997. The Texas Branch is slightly newer, but Mr. Lopez studied in Japan with Okamoto Sensei for many years prior to opening his branch. The California, North Carolina, and Oregon Branches are also doing very well. We just try to keep to ourselves most of the time. While there are no Roppokai Shihan living in the United States, Okamoto Sensei is here quite frequently and keeps tabs on all of us, personally.

    Sensei will be here in August , November, and most likely, March.

    Enjoy your training.

    Howard Popkin
    NY Roppokai
    Jun Dairi Kyoju

  14. #44
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arman
    Jack,

    I'm sorry, I am a bit confused. Who is crying foul?

    Thanks,
    Arman Partamian
    It isn't who is, but who might in some cases.

  15. #45
    Samurai Jack Guest

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    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Popkin
    Gentlemen,

    Is he calling me an infant ? Mr. Robison, do you study Kodo Kai or are you just a historian ? Just curious.

    Actually sir, the Roppokai has been firmly established in the United States for almost 10 years. The New York Branch has been operating since February 1997. The Texas Branch is slightly newer, but Mr. Lopez studied in Japan with Okamoto Sensei for many years prior to opening his branch. The California, North Carolina, and Oregon Branches are also doing very well. We just try to keep to ourselves most of the time. While there are no Roppokai Shihan living in the United States, Okamoto Sensei is here quite frequently and keeps tabs on all of us, personally.

    Sensei will be here in August , November, and most likely, March.

    Enjoy your training.

    Howard Popkin
    NY Roppokai
    Jun Dairi Kyoju
    I don't mean to sound rude at anytime by what I say. My point of view is more factual then anything else. It is due to my understanding what Okamoto is doing in general, keeping tabs, was true also for the Kodo kai some 30 years ago. but we are talking about time. Specifically, factually speaking, the amount of time some Daito ryu groups have been in the US vs. others. Looking at other Daito ryu groups here in the US than the Kodo kai, we can see the dynamics of how such groups. We can look at, for example, which you pointed out, how the Roppo kai examines its groups here. We can also look at Kondo's study groups as well. Overall, we see a slow progression of development. The Japanese take time. They carefully nurture and develop these new groups. As many know the Japanese use the analogy of gardening when developing something like these study groups. It is clear to me from your post this is what Okamoto is doing, and has done. The Japanese understand that Rome wasn't built in a day, and they subscribe to the Old English adage of haste makes waste.

    What does this all mean? In my opinion, you have to look at the big picture in relation to the topic of this post and to the idea that going to a handful of seminars over the years is more of a scouting event (for lack of a more creative and precise term right now) for these organizations then going to a few classes to be certified in a profession. There is nothing wrong with either, but it is just a matter of perspective.

    What the Japanese perceive and what an American individual perceives can and are very different in martial arts. This can be frustrating for both parties. You have two peoples coming together, from almost opposite perspectives. Gee, the misunderstanding than are immeasurable. Take for instance, the differences when it comes to expectations of the Japanese and the Americans. American’s want it instantly. The Japanese take their sweet time, knowing that proper development requires time. The Japanese are far more patient, then Americans. In America you need to brag about who you are and what you got and have done. For example, a job interview. The Japanese find this unappealing, and the less you brag, presenting yourself as humble as possible the better the chance you have.

    I am taking the current Kodo kai as the model for establishment of Daito ryu. They have a qualified resident Shi-han. They have been around for 30 plus years, and over come growing pains. In the early years of develop of this group it was in its infancy and developmental stages. Many people experience Kodo kai at this time, some more positive then others. We can't judge expertise or qualification of any group or those who experience them at that time. We have to look at them at the stage they are at both in development and establishement of the group, and thus the individual and not confuse development with expertise.

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