arrow wounds: disabling?

[John Lindsey]

I was watching a cable TV series called Conflict (great show) and they were discussing Western archers and archery. The host of the show made a comment that we should not believe the Hollywood image of people still fighting with multiple arrows stuck in them. This brought to mind the Japanese paintings of warriors fighting on while wounded with arrows. Granted, some of those may be stuck in the armor, but it is a popular image.

So, just how damaging are arrows? It seems that the type of arrowhead plays an important role as well as the target hit.

[poryu]

Hi John
I have a show on video on English archery from the time of Agincourt (sp)

they discuss the fact the the english arrows were actually penetrating the fench armour. I have also seen a display here in Lincoln castle by people who do medievil` style archery, they were using 60 pound long bows made from Yew, they can put an arrow through a car door at about 60 paces. In the past they were more powerful. I have pulled only once a 120 pound long bow, and I didnt manage full extension. One they have in the royal armouries in leeds I believe is more powerful. they recovered this from the Mary Rose ship wreck.

One guy I knew who was once a member could let loose 20 arrows in a minute, one 16 girl I saw try it, she did 15 in a minute. Imagine what some one who has done it all there life can do.

I think if modern hunters can drop a deer with a single arrow today then I guess a man has no chance.

I recommend these two books

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...551273-7497536 (Japanese archery)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...glance&s=books this one is by Robert Hardy a british actor who is a recognised historian on archery - makes and shoots the old english long bow.

for those that dont know - shooting a long bow is a lot different to shooting a modern competition bow or a compound bow. I have used all when I used to do archery at a local club, the long bow was amazing a completely different feel to it. There is a placenot far from me that actually makes them from yew.

http://www.thebeckoning.com/medieval...hronology.html
web site with a bit of nfo on long bows.

as a side note. It is still law in England that every able bodied man must practise the bow on a sunday. Also in all old churches you will find a Yew tree growing in the grounds. They say it is the tree of light and is connected to religion. I wonder if it is there also as a reminder to practise with your bow (Yew) after church, and also a s a source in emergencies for wood to make bows

[poryu]

Hi

found this on a site http://www.familychronicle.com/agincort.htm

'In the longbow, the English had perfected an extraordinary weapon. A trained archer could shoot six aimed arrows a minute which could wound at 400 yards, kill at 200 and penetrate armor at 100 yards. The English had separate arrowheads for penetrating armor while others were designed to kill or maim horses.

Even as the front ranks were killed by the deadly hail of arrows, the cavalry behind, unaware of what was happening up ahead, pressed forward through the mud, piling up on the dead and wounded at their front. Those who did reach the front had to climb a wall of dead and dying men and horses before they in turn were slain. Taking advantage of this confusion, the English slung their bows and laid into the confused mass with their swords.'

when I saw someone shoot 20 in a minute they were just shooting, but to knock and aim an arrow accurately in 10 seconds is fast.

[Charles Mahan]

It may very well have been a difference in the pull of the bows. The English long bows had an absurd pull. I'm sorry that's just absurd. I'm reasonably certain the Japanese bows never came close. Perhaps it was possible for the samurai to continue fighting because they were not being hit by English longbowman.

[Joseph Svinth]

The Mongol and Turkish bows had even heavier pulls, as did the steel crossbows (arbalests).

John Keegan's "The Face of Battle" is probably the most accessible single description of Agincourt.

For some links to archery in general, see:

* http://margo.student.utwente.nl/sagi/artikel (General)
* http://www.netwizards.net/~eclay (kyudo, or Japanese dismounted archery)
* http://www.ogasawara-ryu.gr.jp/english.html (yabusame, or Japanese mounted archery)
* http://www.student.utwente.nl/~sagi/...q/korean.shtml (Korean archery)
* http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcelo/archery/library/books (English and American)

[Soulend]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan
It may very well have been a difference in the pull of the bows. The English long bows had an absurd pull. I'm sorry that's just absurd. I'm reasonably certain the Japanese bows never came close. Perhaps it was possible for the samurai to continue fighting because they were not being hit by English longbowman.

This is what I was thinking. The longbow had a far heavier draw weight that any yumi or Native American bow I've run across.

I didn't realize the Mongol bow had an even heavier pull - they're so short (the bows not the Mongols)! Maybe due to the horn and composite construction? I couldn't imagine having to accurately fire a bow this strong from horseback

[gmarquay]

I got hit with an arrow once. It just jumped up an' bit me directly in the buttocks. They said it was a "million dollar wound". But the Army must keep that money, cuz I ain't seen a nickle of that million dollars.

- Glenn Marquay

[KhawMengLee]

I didn't realize the Mongol bow had an even heavier pull - they're so short (the bows not the Mongols)! Maybe due to the horn and composite construction? I couldn't imagine having to accurately fire a bow this strong from horseback

In the mid 13th Century and by the end of his reign Kublai Khan had conquered Europe. There was no doubt of that, the only reason why we aren't all speaking mongolian was that when he died his generals decided to pull back to Siberia to fight amongst themselves for power.

Arrows fired from the mongol bows could penetrate plate armour, which was what was being used by the European forces at the time. The mongols wore leather armour and silk tunics underneath(more on this later). This gave them the advantage of being lighter on horseback and the breed of horse they used(much like the Arabian) meant they were quicker than European cavalry.

They could speedily ride around the flanks of European Units firing volley after volly into their sides.

Now I was watching a documentary on the mongols and what was particularly interesting was the use of silk as armour. It was said that death mainly occured from the maiming effects of trying to remove the arrows one was hit with. Silk, it was found, twisted with the arrow on impact, this slowed down the arrow's velocity as well as trapping the arrowhead in the silk. The arrow still punctured flesh butdid not penetrate the silk(ie. the silk still seperated the arrow from making actual contact with flesh). To remove the arrow all one had to do was grasp the silk around the wound and pull and the arrow would literally "pop" out.

MENg

[tddeangelo]

I'm not sure about yumi, but the modern bow we use to hunt with in the States would without a doubt drop an able-bodied human being quite quickly, with good shot placement. For example, the bow I use pulls at 63lbs. It shoots aluminum arrows (Easton 2216's for those interested) at about 210-220 feet per second, slow by today's standards. Attached to the business end of these arrows is an anodized aluminum head carrying three equally separated surgical stainless steel blades of with a serious edge on them.

I've killed 13 whitetail deer with such an arrangement. It is absolutely astonishing what those arrows are capable of. The MASSIVE hemorrhage that the arrow wound causes will surely cause death quickly, even if it isn't instant. A shot placed in the vital organs (heart and lungs noteably) will be fatal in well under 20 seconds. Since deer and men are reasonably similar in size and BASIC physiology, I'd bet it goes for men as it goes for deer. A missed range estimate landed an arrow in a deer's spine once....dropped it in its tracks, and the arrow fully penetrated vertebrae (after soft tissue and a bit of rib)and protruded about 8 inches on the OPPOSITE side.

It's also a myth that arrows only penetrate a few inches and stop. At any reasonable distance, that arrow will keep going and stick in something (or someone) else. Most deer I've taken with the bow did not carry the arrow away with them. It was either buried to the fletch (feathers) in the ground where they were or continued into a tree or underbrush.

What most people don't realize is that an arrow kills via different means than other projectiles. Blunt projectiles (i.e. bullets) kill via shock, not just entirely on the hole they drill. The amount of shock a bullet imparts is monumental, which is why kevlar vests don't protect from all types of injury associated with gunshot wounds. An arrow kills via hemorrhage. The arrow can't produce the immense hydrostatic shock of a bullet, but it can provide a wound channel that bleeds far more than a bullet's.

Ever notice that when you cut yourself with a razor it's hard to stop the bleeding quickly? A clean, straight cut has a hard time healing. Imagine a "Y" of cuts like that that passes through the thoracic cavity. LOTS of bleeding is going to happen. It's been mentioned elsewhere in these boards (I think) that sword cuts create bleeding that is difficult to stop. If that's so, arrow wounds must be even more difficult to plug. Picture three swords set edge out in a circle, edge out, mune to the center, and ram the whole business straight through the poor sucker on the receiving end. Not pretty.

Hollywood's portrayal of arrows in combat is quite off. I can't speak in an educated fashion about the samurai's yumi, but I can't imagine the ballistic qualities of the ya the samurai used were drastically removed from the arrows used in the west.

I mean, they've killed moose with bows! Those things are like walking Volkswagens!

[Menker]

One arrow to the hip is all that it took to kill this unlucky car thief:

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/show...threadid=14781

[Douglas Wylie]

Deer can still run off after they are shot, sometimes a long ways(depending on where you hit them), I would imagine the same holds true for humans.

[tddeangelo]

Originally posted by Douglas Wylie
Deer can still run off after they are shot, sometimes a long ways(depending on where you hit them), I would imagine the same holds true for humans.

Quite true, but a solid hit in vital organs (heart, lungs, liver, kidneys, nervous system) is fatal in well under a minute's time, except in extremely rare circumstances.

Now, if the topic turns to less than ideal shot placement, they (and humans, more than likely) can travel some distance, maybe even survive. But with the exception of wounds that damage purely fascae, I'd venture a guess that even poor placement, even if it's non-lethal or not immediately lethal, renders the individual critter (whichever we wish to hypothesize about) fairly unfit for any strenuous activity (i.e. combat in the case of humans). A big slice through any major portion of the anatomy isn't good for combat effectiveness. Puncture anything that's more than superficial, and that individual's in a world of trouble if they need to do anything more than maintain a pulse(and probably even if that's all they want to do they are going to struggle to accomplish it).

But that's just my somewhat educated opinion, and you know what they say about opinions.....

[PRehse]

Of course it is never just ONE arrow.

Some of the scrolls I've seen picture riding pin cushions.

[tddeangelo]

Originally posted by Charles Mahan
It may very well have been a difference in the pull of the bows. The English long bows had an absurd pull. I'm sorry that's just absurd. I'm reasonably certain the Japanese bows never came close. Perhaps it was possible for the samurai to continue fighting because they were not being hit by English longbowman.

I just read this more closely....and had an idea

The longbow was approx. 6ft. in length, which is extraordinarily long by today's archery standards. It also have a very narrow brace height (from string to riser...the grippy part). Narrow brace height means more loading of the limbs when the bow is fully drawn (you can pull the string further).

English archers anchored their hold somewhere toward the front of the face, where as the little I've seen of Japanese archers shows them drawing back much, MUCH further, thus loading the limbs up more thoroughly.

So perhaps the lighter draw weight is offset by the engineering and methodology? Just a guess...I've also read that war bows pulled in the 60-80lb range, not far off from the 100lb range of the English longbow.

Just some random thoughts....

-Tom

[PRehse]

A long time ago in a woods far far away ...


I had to destroy a crazy black bear with a bolt action 0.306. Stupid animal ate a tin can whose top then pierced the stomach from the inside.

My first two shots exploded the heart, yet it sumersaulted, turned and charged. I put five more shots into it before it ran off the dock. (I had already taken a dive).