What is really yours to teach?

[Tom Campbell]

Nathan Scott posted on 9-1-00:

>Thanks for the post, but please don't change my words. My post is still in print above, and it would save much confusion to simply quote sections than to try to guess as to what I'm saying (in this case, incorrectly)<

Sorry about that, Mr. Scott. I just noticed your 9-1-00 post in the flood of postings on this thread. You are correct in noting that attributions are most accurately done by quoting the exact language. Any distortion of your meaning in my 9-1-00 summarizing of your points was not intended.

Thanks for your clarification of your meaning.

Tom Campbell

[Nathan Scott]

Hi all,


Mr. Campbell - no harm done.

Good posts and points by those who stayed on topic.

BTW, let's just drop the whole NC/Roppokai incident as an example. This topic seems to be strong enough on it's own merit without rehashing the same things on two different threads!

There is not doubt that splitting from one's group/instructor has spawned nearly all of the Budo we have now. However, there are many different ways to separate.

Many that would leave had high/very high ranks in the arts, and as such had felt comfortable with creating their own variation based on their experience, research and experimentation (Shu, Ha, Ri).

Others may have left because of personal or political differences, and wanted to continue training in the techniques. Some had the endorsement of their instructor (more or less), and some didn't. Nothing has changed in this regard!

But, lets look at the subject from a different point of view:

If it is to be understood - correctly or incorrectly, that westerners/non-Japanese have no moral or ethical reservations about adopting methods taught to them by Japanese instructors and separating from them to make their own styles, do you think that:

1) they would still be as open to teaching non-Japanese their family traditions (BTW, thanks Mr. Draeger)?

2) they would have accepted non-Japanese as students to begin with? In other words, isn't there an at least implied understanding that you will respect the instructor's trust in you regardless of what happens personally or politically?

Now, I am fully aware that this is not just a problem with non-Japanese, and that it happens all the time in Japan both now and in the past. But I don't see Japanese headmasters turning away Japanese students. I do see the possibility of Japanese instructors (of at least koryu) turning away non-Japanese instructors though.

Westerners are generally believed to be impatient (not willing to train long enough) and fond of money. While the same could again be said for many Japanese, they still have something we want (their generous instruction in martial traditions, among other things) and as such it would seem prudent to make efforts to improve the way in which we are thought of.

So basically, I'm asking if ya'll are afraid that continuous splits from western branches/study groups are going to dissuade the Japanese from making efforts to spread their art outside of Japan? Some westerners have worked very hard to make a good impression on conservative koryu instructors so that the future generations would have opportunities to study.

Just a thought...

Mr.Tucinucess, welcome to e-budo. Please don't attack the regular contributors here!

Popie - go to your room.

Regards,

[Neil Hawkins]

Alberto, I think Mark did snap at you a little bit, he's a grouchy old man sometimes . I will answer your question quickly before returning to the topic of the thread.

The reason we discuss these things at length here is that there is no other way for us to do it. If I want to get the opinions of people like Nathan or Mark who have a wide set of experiences different from my own, this forum is ideal. The people I train with tend to have similar outlooks to my own, and I can't tap into the wealth of knowledge that is out there in the rest of the world.

Most of us here do train intensively, but have got to the stage in trainng where we want to understand more than our small world, to quote Chuang-Tse "Men honour what lies within the sphere of their knowledge, but do not realise how dependant they are on what lies beyond it." We are looking beyond!

Anyway to the point at hand to me there is no problem with splitting away from the school if you truly feel you can improve on the training. As has been mentioned it's been done since the very beginnings of MAs. However there is a catch, I don't believe that the majority of westerners and some asians have high ideals when they split. Some do it to cash in on the business side, others for reasons of ego. Few understood enough about the arts to improve them.

Anything you are taught becomes your own, but to pass it on in a manner that detracts from your teacher is both an insult to him and a disservice to you. Arts should evolve and grow and this is achieved by re-examining the principles and improving them, not by taking the tricks that have been taught and re-teaching them, this is a weakness. Just as in the childs game of Chinese Whispers, the origin is lost and the result has little value.

Just look at some of the sport karate schools!

Regards

Neil

[Ogami]

Mr Hawkins,

Thank you for your very kind and interest answer to my question.

Now I am understanding your reason for discusion.

Best regards

[MarkF]

Thanks, Neil, but I had decided it wasn't worth it, so I wasn't going to respond to those posts anymore.

Popie, of course it is not just you, it just happended to be you this time. I assure you, in the past I have set bonfires on these threads. Dan and Neil will attest to that.

Originally posted by Nathan

If it is to be understood - correctly or incorrectly - that westerners/non-Japanese have no moral or ethical reservations about adopting methods taught to them by Japanese instructors and separating from them to make their own styles, do you think that:

The word if carries a lot of baggage. The Japanese are just as immoral, or moral, as the next guy, it is just done differently. "No, there is no charge for my classes, but large gifts of mainly cash are more than welcome." Of course, it may be "hidden" or at least it used to be.

There are non-Japanese who have no moral about ripping each other off, it is what it is, and it certainly isn't a game played only by westerners. The number of Japanese who leave Japan is astounding when you count the Westerners who go, and then come back in one to ten years. No one has a monopoly on immorality, but there are different methods in which they are accomplished.

1) they would still be as open to teaching non-Japanese their family traditions (BTW, thanks Mr. Draeger)?

They have been since around the turn of the century. All kinds of schools opened up, and others were going to Japan and were being treated as the "gendai gaijin" that they were. (Thanks Mr. Svinth )

they would have accepted non-Japanese as students to begin with? In other words, isn't there an at least implied understanding that you will respect the instructor's trust in you regardless of what happens personally or politically?

Teachers of budo were coming here from Japan to teach since at least 1904. The dojo is far from a democracy, but things do happen, and promises are broken all the time in the name of budo. Original ryuha had contests against other ryuha, and take what they had seen that worked, and used it and felt nothing was implied, only that the contests were fair. Trust is earned, and this goes for teachers and students.

People are human, even Mr. Menkyo Kaiden has lapses, and they do very bad things to each other sometimes, not only for money, but for the feeling of power. If instructors didn't accept non-japanese students, their schools would have died a miserable death. Some had to lean on "gendai" arts for survival, as J. Kano offered a hand up to them. Later, it was Westerners who supported them, and still do. In it's way, koryu or aiki jj schools who operate small three student dojo use this as advertising. People are looking for the "secrets" so while they say you don't get it until sensei thinks you are ready, and that may be two, three decades, this is still advertising. It was amusing to read Mr. Okamoto's reasons for writing a book to desiminate the teachings for the whole world to hear.

Nathan did qualify what he said by admitting that it was not only Americans and other western countries who took advantage, so that is where I will leave it. My thought was only to answer the hypotheticals he was asking. This wasn't meant as a rebuttal, but simply answers to the questions he posed.


Regards,
Mark

[Mark Jakabcsin]

While this may not answer the question at hand I do enjoy Mr. Tomiki's words and thought others might as well.

"My Concept of Love in Aikido"
by Kenji Tomiki

"In seeking the truth, both master and disciple must be modest in their heart and also must love the truth.

"The way starts from the original precepts set down by the founder and reaches the final goal through the achiements of successors.

"To treat those achievements of the founder as the base and go beyond it: This is creation.

"To improve upon the achievements of the master and take them to a higher level by disciple's successive works through master's works sometimes being succeeded or denied: This is advancement.

"Mutual respect and love exist here. To respect master and love disciple is no doubt to respect love and truth."

by Kenji Tomiki
translated by Itsuo Haba


I should note that I copied this out of my training journal were I had written (hand copied)this sometime ago. Unfortunately I do not recall who shared this with me and hope that I am not stepping on any toes or misrepresenting Mr. Tomiki.

mark

[Edited by Mark Jakabcsin on 09-07-2000 at 04:20 PM]

[MarkF]

My only comment would be that it works both ways. Respect the disciple (student) and love the teacher.


Mark

[Nathan Scott]

It's finally Friday - only a few days left before "vacation"!

My only comment would be that it works both ways. Respect the disciple (student) and love the teacher.

That's a fact, Mark-san. Sometimes it becomes necessary for the student to take care of themselves, as this can be overlooked during the thick of training and duties.

But anyway,


Let's assume that Japanese are as guilty as westerners of splitting off, being money oriented, suffering inflated egos and borrowing techique/ryugi. It is quite possible.

The problem still remains that, to a large degree, as western Budoka we should be careful of how we conduct ourselves (manner and values) and how we transmit the arts we study (professional integrity).

If the word on the streets in the koryu community of Japan becomes "westerner's don't understand our way of thinking and can't be trusted with our family traditions", then we will risk being excluded from koryu transmission from Japanese instructors.

I don't know if this is the best example, but say Japanese change baseball drastically - like, all players wore business suits, and bowed to the catcher before and after coming to plate. Would westerners be as anxious to pass on all aspects of the "baseball culture" that many Americans hold as a kind of national treasure?

Regards,

[Ramirez]

Hi Nathan,

I don't know the specifics of what happened at Roppokai, but I have to disagree with you about "westerner's don't understand our way of thinking and can't be trusted with our family traditions",

We should conduct ourselves with integrity and honour the way we understand it as westerners which I suspect is going to be close to the way the japanese understand it , not the way the we think the japanese expect us to. If this means we do not learn some koryu arts so be it, at least we will be up front about who we are. I think it a misrepresentation to do anything else.

This whole controversy with Roppokai might just as easily occur between two western martial arts practioners or two eastern martial arts practioners, I don't think the different cultures has much to do with it.

[Nathan Scott]

Hello Mr. Young,

First of all, as I've stated at least twice recently on this thread - this subject does not have anything to do, implied or explicitly, with the NC/Roppokai issue. That issue was discussed on a different thread, and has since been closed since nothing further could be gained from discussing it at this point. Please, let's not muddle this topic with the NC/Roppokai issue any further.

Secondly, you are definitely free to your opinion.

But just so you understand my point, I am not saying that *all* westerners act a certain way, or that westerners *should try* to "act" like something they are not.

It is not important what percentage of westerners act inappropriately. What I believe is important is the *perception* that the Japanese koryu community has of westerners in general. These two points are very different.

As far as people changing to fit a mold, or "acting" a certain way, this is not going to work. This issue goes back, I guess, to the discussion of "maybe koryu/classical arts are not for everyone". Certain mentalities, manner and values are not going to coincide with those that I suspect many koryu instructors are looking for - regardless of their nationality.

I feel that non-Japanese are required to live up to a higher standard in this regard to *change* the notion that non-Japanese cannot understand, learn and transmit correctly what they typically would consider important, complex, Japanese cultural arts.

I'm asking if anyone else is concerned with being, correctly or incorrectly, negatively stereotyped as a result of a seemingly increasing trend of "westernization"/modifications of Japanese traditional "family" arts.

Any more takers?



[Edited by Nathan Scott on 09-08-2000 at 02:38 PM]

[Dan Harden]

Nathan writes

Hello Mr. Young,

First of all, as I've stated at least twice recently on this thread - this subject does not have anything to do, implied or explicitly, with the NC/Roppokai issue. That issue was discussed on a different thread, and has since been closed since nothing further could be gained from discussing it at this point. Please, let's not muddle this topic with the NC/Roppokai issue any further.

Secondly, you are definitely free to your opinion.

But just so you understand my point, I am not saying that *all* westerners act a certain way, or that westerners *should try* to "act" like something they are not.

It is not important what percentage of westerners act inappropriately. What I believe is important is the *perception* that the Japanese koryu community has of westerners in general. These two points are very different.

As far as people changing to fit a mold, or "acting" a certain way, this is not going to work. This issue goes back, I guess, to the discussion of "maybe koryu/classical arts are not for everyone". Certain mentalities, manner and values are not going to coincide with those that I suspect many koryu instructors are looking for - regardless of their nationality.

I feel that non-Japanese are required to live up to a higher standard in this regard to *change* the notion that non-Japanese cannot understand, learn and transmit correctly what they typically would consider important, complex, Japanese cultural arts.

I'm asking if anyone else is concerned with being, correctly or incorrectly, negatively stereotyped as a result of a seemingly increasing trend of "westernization"/modifications of Japanese traditional "family" arts.

Any more takers?

*************************************
Hey Nathan
It doesn't seem they can even stay focused on a topic. No matter how much you say it over and over and over they keep going back to it. Think they will stay focused on an obscure art for very long?
Any comments about the western mind....(grin)

BASEBALL??
There is no comparison between this and baseball. Basball is in the public domain. Koryu is not.

Koryu can only be had through personal relationship.
Koryu is transmitted through relationship, hard work, very little outward reward, lots of sweat and trust, and a certain "dug in" dogged determination. It challenges your character.
I hope it never lends itself to commerce, nor becomes overly desirous of the public eye. There is very little of value to be had in either place. Yet it is to that very place that many artist travel.

In my opinion (which isn't worth much) it is not, in any measurable level, necessarily superior to, nor less than, any other given art. In that they may range from the stunningly effective, down to the mediocre. But, they are what they are. A cultural heritage. Not the be all, and end all, of any sort of secret fighting art. In many ways I think you could make a case for them being much more than something as mundane as a study in better ways to kill a human being from 400 years ago. In the end they are a way to live. To challenge yourself and make a better life.

We may, in the end, have a fair chance at "getting it" or we may not. Who knows? In the fullness of time, we may even see an entirely acceptable western/eastern paradigm to Japanese Koryu. But that choice will forever be a personal and "flexible" dynamic between each student and his teacher. They are after all, "Their" arts not ours.
For now I agree with Nathan, that we may be unfairly disadvantaged. Perhaps looked at with mistrust. Perhaps even wrongly judged.
So what. Get over it.
Keep training
Dan








[Edited by Dan Harden on 09-08-2000 at 10:35 PM]

[MarkF]

Let's assume that Japanese are as guilty as westerners of splitting off, being money oriented, suffering inflated egos and borrowing techique/ryugi. It is quite possible.

The problem still remains that, to a large degree, as western Budoka we should be careful of how we conduct ourselves (manner and values) and how we transmit the arts we study (professional integrity).

If the word on the streets in the koryu community of Japan becomes "westerner's don't understand our way of thinking and can't be trusted with our family traditions", then we will risk being excluded from koryu transmission from Japanese instructors.

I don't know if this is the best example, but say Japanese change baseball drastically - like, all players wore business suits, and bowed to the catcher before and after coming to plate. Would westerners be as anxious to pass on all aspects of the "baseball culture" that many Americans hold as a kind of national treasure?

Regards,



__________________
Nathan Scott

I don't think it necessary to assumeanything here. Less than one percent of Japanese do any type aof martial arts, and most of those do not even understand the term, much as is true here. What percentage of those who do pracitice, do any koryu? My guesstimate is about the same as above.

I agree with your statement concerning how we must behave in this strange culture, possibly two cultures, as I believe the Japanese budo culture is one unto itself. Anyone, who decides to learn about and live in another culture must be advised that it isn't easy, that one must immerse oneself into the culture totally, and not just of the culture of bugei, but of eveything, from what Dave Lowry proposed in the "Food and Drink Forum" (you will have to read it for yourself. I could not write, much less reread the subject ), to living and working in this culture, with your koryu studies actually being a distant second to what this proposes to the amount of time you will give. This is almost never your entire remaining years; there are few, very few, who stay more than ten years, and even this is rare. Budo will have to take a back seat until you find that you can live on your salary and in which manner, meaning you will have to start thinking and existing much as the Japanese themselves do. This is not so easy. Then you will have to find the koryu teacher who will accept you, knowing few exist, and you must have a backup plan in case you are not accepted, be it "for the good of the ryu," or outright bigotry. This is the real world, and this is something with which you will deal. And if you are able to finally become comfortable in your living situation to include learning to speak the language, even think in the language, you may have started this process before you leave, with two or more years in school, but while learning the grammar of a language is certainly important, it is little comfort when you arrive there, dictionary in hand, and then find you cannot undertand the language, and since you are far from thinking, even dreaming in Japanese, it will only make your initial time there difficult, if you make it at all.

So if Plan A fails, do you have plans B to Z ready? OK, you misjudged the people, but it is too late, but you have been excluded form one koryu school. According to Diane Skoss, everything you do must be for the good of the ryu, and the good of teacher and other students, especially seniors. You cannot go and you do not even have even the tiniest of luxury of feeling anything for your self at the school, everything you do must be for the good of the ryu, but what do you have to contribute? Nothing probably. This is decided by others.

The word on the street is all ready out. Westerners cannot be trusted. You will not be trusted with anything held dear of the family. At least not very soon. You will still have to spend five, ten, even decades there to earn this trust. This is only based on the fact that most are pretty sure Westerners are not to be trusted. Your job is to change that notion. If not, and you leave before the so-called secrets are learned, then what did this experience accomplish?

In my way of thinking, a lot. While you may not get what you hoped for in the MA or koryu community, you do have invaluable experience, and if you have learned the language and speak it fluently, have immersed yourself in the culture, learned everything you could, but just not what you wanted of koryu, was it an experience wasted? Of course not. You have opened that door to another world by doing what you have done, koryu or not. But you probably have gained insight into what koryu really means, good or bad. Certainly, this cannot be viewed negatively because a fraction of the population did not trust you. If the other sectors with whom you have dealt, did trust you, and you them, well, the danger of not being accepted by this fragment teaches something of human indignaties, and also something of man's inhumanity towards man. If so, then it wasn't so important in the first place. Possibly, just possibly, you have learned, it just was not in the way you planned it.

Anyway, you come away with a lot. It may have not been what you were seeking, but it may be even more invaluable as to what you choose to learn when you come back. I hope so, anyway. Certainly, you cannot call it bad. It was far from that.

Excuse the rant, please. It must be the cleaning fluid used to clean the tatami.

Regards,
Mark

[MarkF]

Orignally posted by Dan Harden:

Hey Nathan
It doesn't seem they can even stay focused on a topic. No matter how much you say it over and over and over they keep going back to it. Think they will stay focused on an obscure art for very long?
Any comments about the western mind....(grin)

They? We have now lumped everyone into one category. Stop that

Mark

[Dan Harden]

er.......... Uhm

I meant the OTHER they.
You know......

Them!......Those Guys


Dan
Grinning

[MarkF]

OOOOOOOOOh, them. Why didn't I think of that? I guess I forgot how good the discussion was. How come I didn't think of the "other" other guys?

Regards,
Mark