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Thread: Kiyoshi Arakaki?

  1. #16
    Gene Williams Guest

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    I agree with Joe's Sensei, too much talk and not enough do. I went to Arakaki's website and was really not that impressed with the pictures or the information. The concept of "falling" into a technique and the "whippin punch" are concepts that are found in many Okinawan ryu. If you do the kata long enough and properly, they just happen. I personally think Mr. Arakaki is a nice guy but a lightweight. Gene

  2. #17
    kusanku Guest

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    Hi Joe, Bryan, Guys-

    Pretty much what's been said.That is, Oshiro Sensei is right, I read his articles and it squares with how I was taught that style.

    When you step and move, you do it as a unit, and you hit just as you land.Or maybe, just a tad before you land, but you aren't really of-balance.

    Naihanchi Shodan Kata is key to understanding this concept, the nami gaeshi or wave returns leg technique shows how to control a fall without falling.

    People often teach, first step, then punch.Okay for kids I guess,but that ain't karate jutsu.In karate jutsu, its more like, first punch then start the step.Body comes in behind the arm or leg and there's a wave of shocking power.Plus it really messes up the opponent's defense and timing.

    But really, its hard to describe.Lot of practice of the basic stepping patterns, kata, kumites and punches and kicks, strikes and blocks, are required, then mastering the kata necessary to learn these skills.Some get it better and faster than others.It seems like you are disregarding laws of physics but in fact, you are merely correctly applying them.

    Can you fall down if you miss or otherwise messs up? You betcha!That's why Naihanchi and other kata need to be done several times daily for several years, to hardwire the safety reflexes that you won't otherwise have.Learning to come down out of that nami gaeshi softly as well as swiftly every time, is key to retaining your balance in this kind of natural movement in self defense.

    That's really about what there is to say about this, the rest is practice, like Joe's Sensei said.But sometimes reading can help, too.One idea internalized is wotrth a thousand hours incomplete practice, but when once the idea is there the practice, is needed to make it real.

    Take Care,

  3. #18
    Rich Guest

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    Hi all

    What I find amazing, and commonsensical at the same time, is that we now start to see more overlap in the arts. This method of power generation is the same as is used in Ninpo taijutsu. My opinion is that all arts are fundamentally the same in priciple and here is an example of how that resurfaces today.

    The 'falling' into a technique can get very subtle as both Karate and Taijutsu Shihan will show but it can be good to exagerate in the early stages to get the gist.

    Regards

    Rich

  4. #19
    Rich Guest

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    BTW whats Arakaki's website called, please?

    Rich

  5. #20
    Ginko Guest

    Default Muso Kai Website

    You can find the website here:

    http://www.geocities.com/musokai/welcome.html

  6. #21
    Guest

    Default Arakaki/Oshiro theories

    Hello all,

    Both Oshiro and Arakaki are attempting to explain some advanced principles that are not easy to grasp from reading a book. This using of gravity to propel and add momentum in the body is not an easy thing to do. It requires one to be very very relaxed and know and understand where one's point of gravity is at, at all times. Another component of this techinque is the "principle" of being "off balance" during your movement. In sport karate you step and lock and pose in a stance and adjust your stances so they are picture perfect so that judges can see them.

    Oshiro's sensei teaches that one should not be in "balance"- before, during, and after, therefore implying that one is in constant movement. Which is how it is in real life, one is not stuck in any given position for any amount of time. Oshiro sensei states that if you do kata this way in a tournament (using tehse combat principles) you would loose and be critisized that your kata is wobbly, that you do not have proper balance, and you look like someone that has little control. So we are talking about apples and oranges.

    Oshiro sensei's Yamanni-ryu performance is a perfect example if anyone is priviledged to see him and/or train with him. In Yamanni-ryu you cannot be in a frozen state, nor use muscle to wield the bo.
    Coming from another Kobudo style I had to completely throw away everything I was doing and relearn the Bo, Sai and Tunfa. It is like night and day, in a different galaxy. I would recommend to anyone to attend one of his seminars and check it out.

    Oshiro Sensei is an expert at punching from 0 (zero) distance, 1", 2" etc... this is also what Arakaki is stating in his book, it is using maximum output with very little external windup, using your internals, along with natures gravity. It is allowing techniques to happen as opposed to forcing them to happen.

    My 2 cents worth.
    Peace.

  7. #22
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    Hi Angel,

    Oshiro sensei states that if you do kata this way in a tournament (using these combat principles) you would loose and be critisized that your kata is wobbly, that you do not have proper balance, and you look like someone that has little control.
    I remember him telling me this too but forgot over the ravishes
    of time. Thanks for the clarification. My Kobayashi teacher
    is a pilot and explained it to me like this. Flying is all about
    compensation. The air lifts and drops you at it's demand. You have to
    constantly correct. If you stop, you drop.

    Thanks again.
    Peace
    Ray Baldonade
    Chibana-ha Shorin-ryu

    "Love many, trust few and do wrong to none". Chan Yau-man

  8. #23
    Guest

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    Ray said:
    -----------
    The air lifts and drops you at it's demand. You have to constantly correct. If you stop, you drop.
    -----------
    That is a good one Ray! Your Sensei is a wise man for sure.

  9. #24
    Bustillo, A. Guest

    Default Angel Lemus

    Angel Lemus, hello.

    I think I remeber you. You were one of the founding fathers of a Perer Urban off-shoot goju style; Sansei goju.

    Back to the thread.
    You lost me when you mention the off-balancing; only because I witnessed a tape of your fourth dan test and the off-balancing and falling proved ineffective.
    Last edited by Bustillo, A.; 16th April 2003 at 18:44.

  10. #25
    Guest

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    Bustillo A. said (about me):
    -------------------------------
    You lost me when you mention the off-balancing; only because I witnessed a tape of your fourth dan test and the off-balancing and falling proved ineffective.,
    --------------------------------

    Where you ever in the Sansei group? What style are you doing now? And what taping of my 4th Dan are you talking about? Which style do you mean? If you are talking about my 4th dan under Sansei Goju under manny Saavedra then you must be cofusing me with someone else cause I never tested for it. For that matter I have never been taped for 4rth dan in any style? Manny Saavedra awarded it to me without a test. Maybe it was another event? Hm?

    And if you are implying that I must been an ineffectively over-ranked off-balanced 25 year old wearing a Renshi belt you are probably right in your observation at that time because I was young stupid, full of snot, and no where near any level of real undersdtanding of bujutsu (it did not exists in those days).

    Today I am 42 years old and I am not the person and martial artists I was then. I look at that young man you are reffering to, and I say to myself who was that idiot? I think I have a better handle on things today.

    In those days there was much good intentions but much ignorance about martial arts, and karate in general. Much of my generation in Miami had no clue of what martial arts was really about.

    The off balancing I am talking about here is a deliberate tehcnique, and a very advnaced Koryu bujutsu principle, the off balancing you describe in the tape you saw is probably because .... that person was was off-balance.

    I did not have this knowledge posted in this thread then, nor did any teachers I was involved with in that group. They were just as young and misguided, as I was equally being misguided. So I ask you not judge my attempts to impart my experiences in this forum here by what you may have seen 18 years ago of an amateur (me).

    It's all good, and I must say that in my first 15 years of martial arts training it was not under very good guidance (except for the Judo I was doing that was real, you cannot fake Judo) but I was young, determined, and that is why I went elsewhere looking for something more traditional that had more depth and substance. This idealism has always guided me to keep looking and looking, and I have gone past teacher after teacher when I realize they cannot teach me any more.

    This is the way it has to be, otherwise you become a clone of mediocrity. Any martial artist has to admit his weaknesses, downfalls, errors to himself first, then you learn and you grow and you become better. It is the way of nature and budo. I am a traditionalist, but I am not blinded nor glued by styles (even my own) I am guilty of cross-training but it is a strength, but I have the ability to get all this knowledge and pump it back to a traditional style and use that to fill the gaps inherent in the generational lapses of knowledge we all suffer from today.

    That being said, all that stuff I said about Oshiro sensie's theories on off balancing are still the gospel as far as I am concerned and I stand behind my statements ( even though I was off balance 18 years ago, in more than one way). At least I knew Judo and if I fell I incorporated into the form by doing a rollout and pretended I meant to do it all along! Hey that is how we made katas up- adlib, the secret is out!

    PS- if you really think it is me in that tape I would love to get a copy of it so I can laught, do you have a copy? I 'll even pay you for it seriously.

  11. #26
    Bustillo, A. Guest

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    Originally posted by nincho
    Bustillo A. said (about me):

    Where you ever in the Sansei group? And what taping of my 4th Dan are you talking about? ...
    And if you are implying that I must been an ineffectively over-ranked off-balanced 25 year old wearing a Renshi belt you are probably right ..In those days there was much good intentions but much ignorance about martial arts, and karate in general. Much of my generation in Miami had no clue of what martial arts was really about. ..
    ... ... I went elsewhere looking for something more traditional that had more depth and substance.
    It is the way of nature and budo.
    PS- if you really think it is me in that tape I would love to get a copy of it so I can laught, do you have a copy? I 'll even pay you for it seriously.

    Mr. Lemus,

    No, I was never in Sansei goju, why would I want to belong to ...that? I was not implying anything about you nor anything about over-rank. I know you are serious about karate. Most of the folks on this forum already know that certain organization are notorious for issuing elevated ranks, fancy titles and pretty belts to young gullible members stupid enough to think they merit such nonsense.

    And please don't group all us South Florida folks into your assumption when you comment about 'the ignorance of your generation in Miami.' There were plenty of legit qualified instructors during that era. My instructors were top-notch and they did know their martial arts.

    You ask if I'm certain if it was you on the tape. I'm almost sure I have the right person because I remember you in the tournament circuit. Kata, never fighting, correct?
    However, I didn't mean to dwell on that. It was just that when I read your comments about off-balancing, I remebered the test I watched on tape, Seibukan in Colorado 1994 perhaps, and though it had not worked in your favor.


    BTW. The magazine you worked on did have some good articles.
    Last edited by Bustillo, A.; 17th April 2003 at 12:43.

  12. #27
    Ginko Guest

    Default Colorado '94

    Antonio,

    I was there I believe it was his Sandan test. I can't recall if it was '92 or '94. For what it's worth, it was also prior to his involvement with Oshiro & the movement principles.
    I may also be on that tape, as I tested for my Shodan that day. Unlike Angel though, I'd just as soon forget it. A lot of water has passed under the bridge since then!

    Also, I agree that Bugeisha was excellent. Btw, are you planning on writing another book? I really enjoyed Steady Training.

  13. #28
    Guest

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    Antonio,

    I did not mean to lump everyone else into the "ignorant" group, I was reffering to the group I was with. And now that you clarify which tape you saw, Yes that was me, and I did suck big time that day, which is one reason I did not pass. Ginko (Jay) did much better than me that day.

    That seems like an eternity and theprinciples of Seibukan of that era were not very sophisticated (under he leadership of that time) that is one reason that whole organization broke apart, some went under Sensei Dan Smith (ISKA), others started the Zentokukai.

    I looked at your website, your stuff looks very good, and your training looks to be very solid. Are you teaching nowadays?

  14. #29
    Join Date
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    I did not mean to lump everyone else into the "ignorant" group, I was reffering to the group I was with.
    Uh Oh, I happen to have been part of sansei goju. Allthough I can say that I wasn't one of those guys who got "handed" anything. Many have walked away from that organization with plenty of rank. I've always been interested in the rank of performance, not necessarily whats around your waist. That is the thing I love about bjj and mma, the instructors do get it on and have to put it on the mat everyday. In karate, many rank miesters just stand around and bark out "ich, ni, san" and don't ever have to do anything else. Besides, I seem to recall sansei goju had some pretty good fighters in it.
    Manny Salazar
    Submisson Sabaki

  15. #30
    Guest

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    I agree with you 100%, BJJ and similar styles are no BS, yo do not see beerbellies on these guys and rank matters little.

    Sansei Goju had some good fighters, and there was a lot of good that they did. But when you get down to it, it was entry level karate knowledge. I have fond memories of those days and had a lot of fun. But in the end I switched due the inherent problems and weaknesess the style had.

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