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Thread: iaido and tameshigiri

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    Default iaido and tameshigiri

    hello out there !
    how many of you out there do iado and tameshigiri ? as it seems to it is not in the curriculum of mjer or msr. what about the other iaido ryuha ? it is pretty common in battodo, i.e. nakamura ryu or toyama ryu, right ?

    thanks for any kind of input.
    yours
    karsten
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    karsten helmholz
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    Regardless of what you might find in my trash, my official answer is...

    I do not.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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    so what you say is that you are NOT cheating and that you do NOT secretly cut innocent tatami-omote ? promise...
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    karsten helmholz
    bujinkan shinden dojo buchholz/hamburg

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    Wouldnt even know what it looks like.

    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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    is there a special reason why it is not included in some ryuha ? is it the development from actual combat swordsmanship to a formal set of movements ?
    when i train iaido i always wonder how good my cuts really are. the noise of a iaito cutting the air is nice but no guaranty. what would be more usefull than testcutting ?


    karsten
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  6. #6
    Mark A. Carter Guest

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    I am going to guess because most of iai arts are based out of Japan, where one cannot (I think) legally import a Paul Chen knock-off katana - one would be stuck using (and potentially destroying) what is considered a significant part of Japanese culture and history, a nihonto.

    That, I would guess, is one benefit of practicing outside Japan - we get to trash the 'Chinese beater blades' and subject the true thing to cutting no more than air (and the occasional thumb ).

    My simple and inexperienced (and I suspect controversial, my appologies to those that it might offend) opinion - learning to use a blade without cutting practice is akin to learning to shoot using blanks - you learn to load, draw and aim - even get the bang and a wee bit of recoil - but you are never really sure how well you did. That being said, please, please do not subject a nihonto to tameshigiri - help keep Hanwei (and swordstore.com with thier 'Iaito that cut') in business

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    I could speculate but that is all. You dont exactly go to the soke and demand that he explain himself.

    If I had to guess, it would be to get away from the WW2 image of the Japanese soldiers slaughtering civilians en-masse in China with their swords.

    Kind of "We are not like that, we do not train for that purpose." statement of morality.

    I think everyone does "things" in their backyards (like cut the grass). They are not to talk about it.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

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    I can only comment regarding my style, Mugairyu Iaihyodo, which I practice in Tokyo, Japan.
    First off, note we practice 'iaihyodo' (the hyo character is 'hei'=military/martial); a conscious choice on the part of gosoke a long time ago was made to use that term instead of 'iaido', in order to reinforce the face that we practice "cutting iai (kireru iai)" -- practical and effective martial technique, and one of our core principles is "jutsu-no-naka-ni, michi-o miidasu": finding the path within the physical techniques. That is, we study and practice for the ultimate goal of bettering ourselves and the world around us, but to that end having effective physical technique is critical.
    Our kata and movements are fairly boring to watch; fast, direct, powerful cuts. Very little flash or flare, no wasted movements, no "dance". Our kata can and are used for actual tameshigiri, specifically fast and powerful cuts from a seated draw.

    From what little experience I have with other ryu (practicing the seiteigata, seeing demos of other koryu) it seems some iaido are much more "path" and much less "effective technique" in the sense that kata are performed in such a way that they couldn't be used to effectively cut any type of target. This is not a criticism of those arts; I think for example TaiChi is a phenomenal way to develop one's self, but it should be confused for a fighting/sparring art like hankido or tae kwon do.
    Also, again as far as my minimal knowledge of seiteigata goes, not all techniques are full cuts. For example in the first seiteigata I was taught that the initial draw and cut is across the opponent's eyes, therefore a wrist snap is sufficient, whereas in Mugairyu Iaihyodo, a similar kata with a similar opening draw is a cut intended to split the opponent in two, or at least penetrate the chest cavity and do lethal damage to vital organs. Obviously, the first technique does not lend itself to tameshigiri, but is no less a valid technique.

    For 4dan and above testing, tameshigiri is a required part of the test. A failed cut means instant test failure; the idea being that by 4dan at the very least your basic cuts must cut effectively. There's not point in even doing the kata if you can't cut.

    We also have a group of shihan called Denshobu ('Traditional Instructors' or something like that) who run tameshigiri practices several times a month. In order to be a Denshobu member one must not only have proficiency in the kata and expansive knowledge of the art (hhistory, etc.) but also be able to cut effectively, specifically seated draws.

    Hope this helps.

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

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    Also, regarding the supply of cutting swords. You are correct, we have only real nihonto, and the average decent cutter costs 300,00-500,000 yen (US$2500-4500).
    That being said, there are quite a number of groups that do cut, including battojutsu and other arts that mainly cut, and groups like mine that cut as part of a larger curriculum.
    Availability of swords is an issue, but not a show-stopper. Fear of destroying a traditional Japanese heirloom is minimal because tameshigiri swords are either gunto or shinshinsakuto specifically made with tameshigiri in mind. No one that I know of cuts with an art sword or iaito.
    I actually have 2 blades: a lighter, slightly longer iato (shinshinsakuto) with the balance closer to the tsuba, and a heavier, slightly shorter cutter (also a shinshinsakuto) that's more tip-heavy.

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

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    The fact remains that there are several perfectly legitimate Koryu which do not cut. MJER is one such system.

    This upsets the tameshigiri crowd who put great stock in cutting, as well they should. It is after all a part of their training system. It is not a part of mine, at least not officially. That does not make what we do any less effective. One ryu does it. One does not. Some koryu practice with fukaro shinai, some do not. Does that make the koryu who do not any less effective necessarily?

    Let's not devolve into throwing mud at the core belief structures of different koryu.

    See I knew all the love for iai was too good to be true.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    We cut in our faction. But in the time allocation break down it seems to come in lower on the priority list.
    Ed Boyd

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    I study Shinto-Ryu Iai Battojutsu. Target cutting is a large part of our practice, for focus and to check hasugi. Besides all that it's lots of fun. Cutting is a nice way for me to find out how well my practice is "working".

    Jeremy
    Jeremy Hulley
    Shinto Ryu Iai Batto Jutsu
    TNBBC

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    Talking Stuff?

    Originally posted by renfield_kuroda

    I think for example TaiChi is a phenomenal way to develop one's self, but it should be confused for a fighting/sparring art like hankido or tae kwon do.
    Tai-Chi's martial applications are less widely practiced...but I wouldn't mess with a fully-transmitted Taichi practitioner anymore than I would a Hapkido practitioner.

    Originally posted by renfield_kuroda

    Also, again as far as my minimal knowledge of seiteigata goes, not all techniques are full cuts. Obviously, the first technique does not lend itself to tameshigiri, but is no less a valid technique.
    I think this is part of the reason why tameshigiri isn't emphasized in some styles...because it focuses on a SPECIFIC type of cut.

    I remember cross-training with someone who trains in Kali/Escrima or something like that.

    We just each grabbed a bokuto and went at it.

    I've found from that experience that it is not that easy to set your opponent up for that decisive blow when he is focused on "defanging the snake".

    What "defanging the snake" means is that he is focused on these light, fast, non-commital hit and run slashes that would build up his advantage. The timing needed to set up a decisive blow is obviously different from non-committal slashs.... Just look at why boxers jab before they punch?

    While being able to split your opponent with every blow is a nice IDEAL that I'd like to achieve, I "like" to think doing a faster,debilitating, stunning first cut that would set you up for that follow-up decisive cut is more practical for actually connecting with the person on the first blow and/or recovering if you MISS.

    Besides, I've read somewhere that Maniwa-Nen Ryu or another ryu that sounded similar has a strange cut where they achieve the cut by pushing the blade forward rather than drawing back. The first time I asked a Toyama Ryu practitioner about that, he laughed his head off...I'd like to think he's just narrow-minded about what is a cut and what is not.

    What is "effective" anyway? I think too often, the tameshigiri folks equate "effective" with "splitting the opponent in half".

    I'd equate "effective" with "putting the opponent away".

    I'd equate "splitting the opponent in half" with "overkill" and "It would be nice if I could do that easily".

    After all, where in the human body can you cut one-inch deep without doing devastating damage?

    Regardless of how inexperienced I may be at tameshigiri, I don't think I'd have any problems sinking a blade one inch deep into someone.

    Your thoughts may vary

    David "Will do tameshigiri someday...really"
    Last edited by DCPan; 21st February 2003 at 05:28.
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    Oops, double post! (ERASED)
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    You can see my more extensive comments on this matter in the "Kendo, is it close enough thread," but, basically, I think if you really want to know how to cut efficiently, you have to at least try tameshigiri. OTOH, a poor cut can obviously still maim and kill.

    Regards,

    Arman Partamian

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