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Thread: iaido and tameshigiri

  1. #16
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    Folks:

    When we train Sekiguchi Ryu Batto Jutsu in Japan we wrap our own wara bundles with and without bamboo in the center. We only cut at Shoden and above "there"; and only with practicing the Sekiguchi Ryu kata. We cut goza here in the states unless you live in East Texas where rice is grown. But it sure is fun.

    Studying Nakamura Ryu Batto Do, I've watch Nakamura Sensei cut goza using the Nakamura Seitei Toho kata (its on one of his tapes). No doubt they work.

    Carl McClafferty

  2. #17
    Mark A. Carter Guest

    Default

    Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
    , we have only real nihonto, and the average decent cutter costs 300,00-500,000 yen (US$2500-4500).
    Yikes!
    Then again, I guess everything is relative - that's about, what, a months rent there (perhaps less)? I guess on the plus side, you know you are getting the 'real deal' as opposed to the possibility that it is a 'fast food factory fake' as we have to deal with on this side of the 'pond'?

    Thank you kindly for clearing that up - I had heard rumour of no fakes being allowed in, but nothing concrete.

  3. #18
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    Default One shot kills and defanging the snake.

    David,
    As far as the difference between the "one shot kill" theory and the "defang the snake" methods, one thing that has occurred to me in the past is that to my understanding Japanese systems evolved in a setting where people wore armor. That is, you needed very accurate placement to ensure that you hit the weak spot, otherwise you just hit armor.

    Contrast this with the S.E. Asian systems that evolved as
    1) civilian arts
    2) where people didn't wear armor or heavy clothing.

    In that setting, the whole body is vulnerable.

    Tim Fong
    Tim Fong

  4. #19
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    Talking Re: One shot kills

    Originally posted by edg176
    David,
    As far as the difference between the "one shot kill" theory and the "defang the snake" methods, one thing that has occurred to me in the past is that to my understanding Japanese systems evolved in a setting where people wore armor. That is, you needed very accurate placement to ensure that you hit the weak spot, otherwise you just hit armor.

    Contrast this with the S.E. Asian systems that evolved as
    1) civilian arts
    2) where people didn't wear armor or heavy clothing.

    In that setting, the whole body is vulnerable.

    Tim Fong
    Well, it appears to be that the techniques of Kendo derive more from techniques of civilian duels rather than armored combat. Had it been based on armored combat, the technique would have preclude the use of Jodan and instead use MAKIUCHI as per TSKSR.

    I've noticed that of the folks that immediately dive into tameshigiri without much experience in other aspects of sword arts, their stance tend to be too deep and their "wind-up" too long to set up for the cut...powerful cuts they may be...no way they'll connect a live moving target of ANY skill level. Their movements are also too deliberate and choppy.

    Videos of what Mr. Obata and Mr. Nakamura Taisaburo, on the other hand, scares me
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  5. #20
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    Default Toward what end swordsmanship

    My experience with tameshigiri is limited but growing. After performing forms of various iai styles for some 13 years and hearing tachi-kaze fairly regularly in my "cuts," it has taken tameshegiri to translate the actual mechanics of good cutting to swordsmanship, that is, differentiating between cutting and whacking or chopping. You can have excellent hasuji and still stick in the wara. Conversely you can be experienced and accomplished at tameshegiri and never perform batto. Iai and cutting complement each other beautifully, but the practitioner must make the choice to seek that synthesis.

    Tameshigiri is "test cutting." Testing the swordsman, AND testing the sword. There is nothing inherent or implied about cutting a live moving enemy. That's a superimposed mindest of seriously questionable motivation and skewed perception. Tameshigiri should not fall under criticism for something it is not intended to do. I realize there's folks out there who look at sword arts through a lens of preparing to or wanting to test their skills in real combat against another shinken. "Out there" thus being the operative term.

  6. #21
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    Talking Addendum

    Hi,

    What I wanted to type was what Nakamura Taisaburo sensei CAN DO scares me...somehow, the "can do" didn't make it into the post

    Tameshigiri is something I want to try eventually...if someone can give me a "good" shinken before that "eventually", I'd be happy to oblige

    I am simply bored by all the people blowing tameshigiri out of proportion and making that seriously flawed "shooting a unloaded gun" analogy at the kendo folks.

    Those who use the gun analogy obviously have no understanding of what it is involved in the waza-mae/riai of getting the sword to a target that isn't cooperating. Comparing the use of a projectile weapon to one-to-one combat is so full of holes it isn't even worth going into.

    As mentioned by others before on various forums, tameshigiri serves its function as a part of "well-rounded" sword training...to make tameshigiri any more than what it is, you are only making the same mistake that you accuse the kendo folks of making.

    Regards,
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

  7. #22
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    Our association decided to add tameshigiri into the grading criteria some years ago for shodan and above. This was due to the fact that the first time we tried it at a seminar, we noticed that some people, including 5th dans (who do not practise with us) were incapable of cutting the target, mainly due to maai being incorrect! The methods of preparing mats, safety areas etc are included in the club manuals. I believe it is a valuable addition for iaidoka who do not do any other 'contact' sport such as kendo, or perhaps do not have a one on one waza set such as MJER tachi uchi no kurai. It also convinces people that they do not have to use upper body and arm strength to cut. A good example I use is to just tap the blade into the mat one handed and show the depth of cut. We also use shingunto as even the best blade would bend in inexperienced hands if not used properly.
    What makes me laugh though is the amount of people who need to measure up the distance before they cut... I have a picture of them asking their opponent to stand still a minute while they work the distance out.....
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  8. #23
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    Sorry for repeating some of the points made already, but I'd also like to stress two:
    1) Tameshigiri is one of myriad practicing tools. There are as many different schools, styles, and teachers as there are stars in the sky, and there really is no "better than", there is only "different than". So for those who do/do not utilize tameshigiri, kumitachi, kata, sparring, meditation, etc. fret not: the style that does use said training methods is no better/worse, it's just different.
    2) Niina-gosoke is apt to say (and just told again last night after I was decidedly nervous demoing cuts in front of the whole school, blowing it twice before getting it the third time): Cutting targets is fine...for cutting targets. A real opponent is a different thing: he moves, he's got a sword, and he's trying as hard to kill you as you are to kill him.
    His point being, every training technique has a specific purpose. Tameshigiri, for us, is a good way to practice maai, hasuji, accuracy, and power, among other things. For us, it is not the end result so much as the process. That is, powering through a roll with no hips and all arm is neither impressive nor useful, but failing a cut because of improper distance is a great way to understand what the right distance should be.

    Finally, (again the caveat for us) we practice with a sword to develop practical techniques, yet we do not see as the ultimate goal of our training victory in a sword battle. The physical techniques are a means to an end to better ourselves; defeat our own ego, learn the limits (and limitlessness) of our own abilities, understand our weaknesses, and develop character. To that end, we practice effective, yet idealized, techniques. Most (not all, but close) cuts are completely devastating; if not splitting the opponent in two then decidedly tearing through meat, bone, and vital organs. Part of the reason for this is because such physical techniques are quite demanding, requiring the full application of one's power, speed, and skill to accelerate, cut, and stop the blade accurately. And only through tireless repetition of physical techniques and buckets of sweat can we hope to achieve even the slightest level of accomplishment, understand our own insignificance, and realize just how long this path is.

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

    P.S. On re-reading this post, I realize it must be the humbling result of performing cuts badly in front of everyone yesterday has made me wax a bit more zen than usual.

  9. #24
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    Well said Renfield. Reminds me a lot of the things said by Tanida-sensei Friday night. Not better, not worse just different. We don't really understand why other ryu do things the way they do, and they don't understand why we do the things that we do, so it is best not to judge them.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  10. #25
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    Default Beautifully Put Mr. Kuroda!

    Mr. Kuroda,

    I very much enjoyed your last post. I think it pointed out the true "reality" of sword training - to better one's self. After working with katana for a quarter of a century and cutting thousands of mats (there are two dozen rolled in my garage right now) I find tameshigiri to be a means to an end, not an end unto itself.

    As has Niina Gosoke, my Soke (Katsuse Yoshimitsu Kagehiro of the Suio Ryu) has stated that as an opponent does not stand still, cutting a stationary mat is not a decisively important part of training. (Katsuse Soke actually practices his cutting technique from an undrawn seated position against pieces of broken shinai - he holds a piece with one finger then draws and cuts it without it flying across a room - talk about impressive!) Tameshigiri helps with judging cutting distances but other training activities, such as paired practice, goes a great deal further in helping one understand timing and maai then tameshigiri. However, when well done tameshigiri does look impressive!

    If memory serves me right, tameshigiri was originally used by swordsmiths to show/prove the value of their work. Their swords were handed to executioners who would test them on the bodies of criminals and then report the results. The more "bodies" or the better the cut, the more valuable the sword. Very similar to a gunsmith taking a weapon out on a range to test its accuracy - the more accurate the gun the more valuable the weapon.

    Sooo ... in my humble opinion if one does not do tameshigiri it does not, per se, detract from their quality of training.

    Besides, and this is something that a number in the sword community who take themselves far too seriously forget, this is ANCIENT stuff. After taking in years of training, cutting thousands of mats, perfecting your kiai, and getting to the rank if Inifinidan the truth is that any kid in a back alley with a .22 at two yards wins! (Soke has said more than once that if he had to go into battle he would take an M-16.)

    Please keep in mind that all of the above is MY personal opinion.

    Keiko!

    Brian Stokes

  11. #26
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    Thumbs up

    Excellent post Renfield!
    A couple of cents worth of my own ... People forget that modern tameshigiri, cutting grass targets, was started fairly recently with the formation of Toyama Ryu. It was formed as a style to specifically teach proper cutting technique after the poor showing of the Japanese in Manchuria (I think I remembered that correctly, someone please correct if I'm wrong!). Tatami omote as a standard cutting medium was begun by Obata Toshishiro sometime in the last 25 years or so. There are many schools, as Renfield pointed out, that haven't jumped on that particular band wagon, and probably won't. Doesn't make them better or worse, just different.
    As Dan Harden is fond of saying ... It's all good!

    Cheers,

    (editted for stupidity!)
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  12. #27
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    What do you use to cut with?

    Gunto? Hanwei? (what kind) Bugei? Other?

    How does it do?

    I have a Practical Katana that works well for cutting (IF I did that sort of thing ).
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  13. #28
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    Thanks all for the encouragement! I am now firmly deluded into thinking I am far more eloquent than I am.

    Regarding what I cut with, I have a nihonto (shinshinsakuto) that I bought from Tanaka-sensei -- his personal cutter that wasn't quite right for him is absolutely perfect for me. 2shaku-3sun-2bu, 1.6cm sori, 950 grams and a bit tip heavy. has bo-hi, but it has a decent girth so no fear of bending unless I really try to power it through huge targets. Which I don't I cut exclusively single tatami omote rolls. We get out omote from a tatami-store run by a friend of a member, so they're nice and old and fairly tough, but not impossible.
    I reckon one measely roll isn't terribly impressive to the batto-jutsu folks out there, but we cut most one-handed, from a seated draw, so one roll is plenty tough for me!

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

  14. #29
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    Thumbs up I Bow To A Superior Skill

    Ren,

    EXCELLENT!!!

    Chances are that some of my students will be seeing your words, as I fully intend to plagiarize you!!!!

    Humbly submitted,
    Guy

    P.S., I award your last two posts a "Five Star" rating!
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  15. #30
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    Ah, if only I could cut as well as I can write about cutting...

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

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