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Thread: iaido and tameshigiri

  1. #31
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    Question Hi and tameshigiri

    Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
    It has bo-hi, but it has a decent girth so no fear of bending unless I really try to power it through huge targets.
    Sorry if I'm drifting off topic, but I was wondering what the hazards are of having a hi on a blade that will be used for tameshigiri. Is the sword significantly weaker? And is the risk of bending large enough that it would be better to look for another sword without a hi? Thanks!

    Nicholas Lauridsen

  2. #32
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    Default

    Searching for "bo-hi" will bring up several related topics, but in general if you have 2 swords that are exactly the same, but one has bo-hi, then yes it is structurally weaker than the sword w/out bo-hi.
    Bo-hi can also cause drag for some cuts, then again it can help with other cuts.
    It really depends on what and how you cut. In Mugairyu Iaihyodo, we do most of our cutting from a seated draw, on tatami-omote rolls, so I want a slightly shorter, lighter blade that I can draw quickly and powerfully with one hand. I'm more likely to bend a blade on a bad cut when I've got way too much power but bad hasuji, which generally happens on double-handed downward cuts. Never heard of any of us in Mugairyu Iaihyodo bending a sword on a one-handed cut from the draw. Usually just hit the roll badly and get stuck.

    Check with your sensei, s/he can recommend a sword that makes sense for your style of cutting and your ability.

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

  3. #33
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    Default Wow

    I think I'm more impressed that he can hold a broken piece of a shinai with one finger than with his cutting it! Seriously, though, I'm trying to picture this and I can't work it out. Is the piece thrown in the air, or does he dangle it in front with his left hand and cut with his right? Isn't that way too close to be able to cut it? I'm not being the least bit sarcastic, and I may have misunderstood. I just can't figure out what's going on from the description.

    Nathan Sherrard

  4. #34
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    Default Holding the Shinai

    Hi Guys,

    What my Soke does is hold an 18" long strip of shinai vertically, one end on the ground, one end held by his finger. He lets go of the strip, draws and cuts the piece. (This man has the fastest draw I have ever seen.)

    However, tameshigiri is not a required part of the Suio curriculum. The last time some of the students were cutting Soke walked in and was offered a blade to cut with. He took the blade, walked over to the target, and cut, apparently missing. He then told those in attendence to look at the target and the found a 2" long gash 1" deep in the target. Soke then pointed out that he had cut deep enough to disable his opponent by cutting his artery (the cut was precisely at throat height) and to do any more would only either damage his blade or get it caught in his opponent's body. He went on to say that if you were in battle what you seek is the least effort that does the most damage without slowing you down. Finally, he pointed out that the target is not moving and your opponent is not stupid so he is not going to stand there and let you swing at him. (Reiterating what Mr. Kuroda's Sensei expressed.)

    Do I still do tameshigiri? Yes! As mentioned earlier I have two dozen rolls in my garage right now (a dozen of which will be used this weekend). The difference now though is I am concerned with the targeting and preciseness of my cut. My goal is to get as many slices on that darn thing from a draw and with accuracy (using the "ribs" of a rolled tatami as the target points.) I also try to move around the target while doing the same. (TRY is the operative word here- I figure a ew hundred mats from now I will figure this out.)

    As I see it these days I used to be a tree surgeon, now I am attempting to become a heart surgeon.

    Brian Stokes

  5. #35
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    Default Mugairyu Iaihyodo

    Thought I'd take this opportunity to share some videos of Mugairyu Iaihyodo cutting.
    There are three videos on this page: http://www.gojyaku.com/mugai/02.06.3.../kenkyaku1.htm (bottom left) showing Tanaka-sensei and Naganuma-sensei doing tameshigiri.
    Probably best to right-click the videos, save to your hard drive, and then playback locally.

    The first video is an okuden technique called jinrai: from seiza, nukiuchi gyaku-kesagiri, then yoko-ichimonji.
    http://www.gojyaku.com/mugai/02.06.3...u/p1010001.MOV

    The second video is nukiuchi yoko-ichimonji from seiza through 2 targets. Note the one target is free-standing:
    http://www.gojyaku.com/mugai/02.06.3...u/p1010007.MOV

    The third is quick and the first second is cut off so watch it slow. It's an okuden technique called shofu:
    Naganuma-sensei has the sword lying next to him in seiza. He slaps the saya off and then (here starts the video) grabs the unsheathed sword in a reverse grip and cuts gyaku-kesagiri. This is the "I'm drinking tea in polite company, with my sword unthreateningly on my right side, when I am suddenly attacked" move.
    http://www.gojyaku.com/mugai/02.06.3...u/p1010008.MOV

    Regarding bo-hi, note that Tanaka-sensei's sword does have bo-hi. Actually I've purchased that sword from him and it's now my cutter. If only I could cut like that though...

    Regards,

    renfield kuroda

  6. #36
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    Default

    Would you say tameshigiri is to swordsmanship what heavy bag work is to boxing?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  7. #37
    stevemcgee99 Guest

    Default Waaaaaah!

    !!!!! Why can't I see them?! I hate my computer! All I get it a "torn" Quicktime logo!

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Waaaaaah!

    Originally posted by stevemcgee99
    !!!!! Why can't I see them?! I hate my computer! All I get it a "torn" Quicktime logo!
    You can download the QuickTime plugin at:

    http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download/

    then you can see the videos. They look great! I have seen very little tameshigiri from the draw -- thank you for sharing.

    Nicholas Lauridsen

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Waaaaaah!

    Originally posted by stevemcgee99
    !!!!! Why can't I see them?! I hate my computer! All I get it a "torn" Quicktime logo!
    You probably need the latest Quicktime. Also, I suggest right-clicking them and saving them to your hard disk -- sometimes they don't play very well in the browser.

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Re: Waaaaaah!

    Originally posted by Kennesten
    I have seen very little tameshigiri from the draw -- thank you for sharing.
    I am certainly no expert, but I haven't seen any other styles that cut on the draw like Mugairyu Iaihyodo.
    At the most recent Kobudo Festival at Nippon Budokan a few weeks ago, there were of course several sword styles that cut from the draw, and a few that did some tameshigiri with drawn blades, but I've never seen a style that focuses on effective cutting from the draw as much as Mugairyu Iaihyodo -- but that's more of a comment on my lack of knowledge than anything else.

    Tameshigiri from a seated draw is a really good way to make sure you are using your hips and accelerating the blade from within the saya. Also a good practice for maai, but of course an opponent holding a sword trying to cut you is not going to stand there like a roll, but anyway it's good practice, lots of fun, and reinforces the main tenant the Mugairyu Iaihyodo is "cutting iai".

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

    P.S. I and Naganuma-sensei will be demoing some tameshigiri at the Butokusai in Kyoto on April 29.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Waaaaaah!

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by renfield_kuroda
    [B]

    I am certainly no expert, but I haven't seen any other styles that cut on the draw like Mugairyu Iaihyodo.
    Regards,
    renfield kuroda
    .............................................................

    Ren,
    Since your last promotion you sure have been waxing that zen poetry..

    Some fine posts if I do say so..You are getting so you can talk the talk now that you are walking the walk.I guess all that fine instruction and practice is paying off.
    BTW I am getting more and more impressed and envious all the time.

    Keep up the great posts
    Gene Gabel
    (yes, we cut too)
    Ji Kai Iaido

  12. #42
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    Default Batto-tameshigiri

    Originally posted by renfield_kuroda

    I am certainly no expert, but I haven't seen any other styles that cut on the draw like Mugairyu Iaihyodo.
    I think there are one or two draw-cuts in the latest Bugei tameshigiri video; but I haven't seen any otherwise. I wonder if MJER or other iaidoka use it?


    Tameshigiri from a seated draw is a really good way to make sure you are using your hips and accelerating the blade from within the saya.
    I think it's easy to learn drawing technique without understanding how to use power with them -- when I started using an iaito, the first thing I noticed was that the sound (tachikaze?) of the cut was much softer than with any two-handed cuts. Tameshigiri seems like an excellent way to begin thinking of the draw as a solid cut (provided it's safe!). =)

    Nicholas Lauridsen

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Waaaaaah!

    Originally posted by stevemcgee99
    !!!!! Why can't I see them?! I hate my computer! All I get it a "torn" Quicktime logo!
    At last... a video I downloaded that I can see on my Mac Classic apps

    Hyakutake Colin
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  14. #44
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    Default Re: Batto-tameshigiri

    Originally posted by Kennesten

    I think there are one or two draw-cuts in the latest Bugei tameshigiri video; but I haven't seen any otherwise. I wonder if MJER or other iaidoka use it?

    Nicholas Lauridsen
    We do 'draw-cuts' occassionally when performing tameshigiri in our dojo (MJER, Jikishin-Kai, Shimabukuro Hanshi).

    And I just saw a demonstration at the Costa Mesa, CA taikai where Toshiyuki Tateno Sensei (ZNKR) performed MJER waza and did a tameshigiri 'bunkai' for the Okuden Tachi Waza technique called "Yukizure" which has a 'draw-cut'.

    Erik Tracy

  15. #45
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    Default

    Well as has been stated before. The seitokai does not do tameshigiri as part of the curriculum, but we certainly do cut from the draw. That's kinda what seperates Iai from the Ken schools.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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