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Thread: iaido and tameshigiri

  1. #46
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    Talking Enter the Dragon...

    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    Would you say tameshigiri is to swordsmanship what heavy bag work is to boxing?

    To quote from that cult movie,


    "Boards don't fight back..." (feel free to add your own sound effects at this point)


    Best,

    Jonathan

  2. #47
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    Default Re: Re: Batto-tameshigiri

    Originally posted by Erik Tracy


    We do 'draw-cuts' occassionally when performing tameshigiri in our dojo (MJER, Jikishin-Kai, Shimabukuro Hanshi).

    And I just saw a demonstration at the Costa Mesa, CA taikai where Toshiyuki Tateno Sensei (ZNKR) performed MJER waza and did a tameshigiri 'bunkai' for the Okuden Tachi Waza technique called "Yukizure" which has a 'draw-cut'.

    Erik Tracy
    Fifty six year old Tateno from Niigata?
    He is also a Yudansha in the Batto Renmei. Nanadan if I remember.

    Hyakutake Colin
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  3. #48
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Waaaaaah!

    Originally posted by Gene Gabel

    Ren,
    Since your last promotion you sure have been waxing that zen poetry..

    Some fine posts if I do say so..You are getting so you can talk the talk now that you are walking the walk.I guess all that fine instruction and practice is paying off.
    BTW I am getting more and more impressed and envious all the time.
    Those who can, do. Those who can't wax zen-ly online!

    BTW Naganuma-sensei and Niina-gosoke popped by practice on Friday night and reminded me, in painful detail, just how truly lame I am.

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

  4. #49
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    Default Re: Re: Re: Batto-tameshigiri

    Originally posted by hyaku


    Fifty six year old Tateno from Niigata?
    He is also a Yudansha in the Batto Renmei. Nanadan if I remember.

    Hyakutake Colin
    Greetings Colin-san,

    I am not totally sure about your question. Tateno Sensei's card says Tochigi, Japan.

    Here is the picture that Richmond McCluer (Toyama-ryu) took at the February Taikai in Costa Mesa.



    Tateno Sensei gave me his card as he watched me warm up for the battodo taikai. He was 'interested' in how I was doing MJER waza. He was so 'interested' that I got a mini-seminar that lasted a good 20 minutes or so! I was very appreciative of his warm and helpful advice.

    Regards,
    Erik Tracy

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    Hello Eric San

    He used to spend a lot of time and travel with Iwata Norizazu Sensei MJER.

    We went to the U.K. together in 95 to do the first Roshukai Seminar.

    I have photo of him you might be interested in. Can I email it to you?

    Hyakutake Colin
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  6. #51
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    Originally posted by hyaku
    Hello Eric San

    He used to spend a lot of time and travel with Iwata Norizazu Sensei MJER.

    We went to the U.K. together in 95 to do the first Roshukai Seminar.

    I have photo of him you might be interested in. Can I email it to you?

    Hyakutake Colin
    Greetings Colin-san,
    Yes, please, I'd be very interested in the photo!

    I sent you a Private Message with my email.

    Arigato gozaimasu,
    Erik Tracy

  7. #52
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    How is he doing now? I remember he had to have a pretty serious operation after the seminar....this was not related to the large steak he had with me in the U.K. by the way! Would like to see him again soon....

    Tim Hamilton
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  8. #53
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    When I lived in Japan I practiced MJER for about a year and a half, in addition to doing a lot of kendo. We never did test cutting in class (I wasn't good enough to do it and I didn't have a shinken, anyway). However, people in the class did tameshigiri on their own. One guy even said he cut some iron rods wrapped in straw, I think (I don't know how thick, but maybe 1/4" stuff) and was so surprised at how easily he cut through it, and with a wakizashi, to boot! He did a little pantomime about how he practically lost his balance when he cut through much more easily than he expected and went twirling off to the side, sort of like a batter who misses a pitch and loses his balance. It was pretty funny.

    Anyway, my teacher had me do nulitsuke full-strength against a kendo dummy (a tire hung on a frame) using a bokken in a saya until I got my mechanics correct. It's amazing how difficult it is to really hit something really hard from the draw (a lot of sore right wrist until I got my hasuji correct).

    I have continued with kendo and jo and sometimes practice the iai I learned on my own. I am not particularly tall or strong.

    I say this by way of leading up to a tameshigiri session I had (my first) about a year ago under the supervision of Guy Power Sensei. To make a long story short, I was amazed at how easy it was to cut. On my first cut, just a kesagiri from hasso, the blade went through the mat as though it wasn't even there. I simply could not believe it. I expected some rsistance, but it simply wasn't there. It was like cutting air.

    This was, however, not tatami omote, but one of those rice straw beach mats you can get in Chinatown for about a buck, rolled up and soaked in water. Cutting the tatami omote was a little more difficult, but not significantly so.

    The issue, I discovered, was not power, in the sense of arm strength, but proper mechanics (hips and tenouchi mainly) hasuji, and tip speed. Of course, the bigger the target the harder it will be to cut it, and a bamboo core will make it even more difficult. I make no claims about how many mats I can cut.

    I guess what I am trying to say is that although I never trained in tameshigiri and only did MJER and modern kendo, which some "traditionalists" deride as being without martial application, I found that I had sufficiently learned hasuji and tenouchi to be able to cut even though I had never actually practiced it.

    Tameshigiri is a good training method, I think, so long as it does not become the be-all and end-all of training. In the same way, although modern kendo has artiticial rules, it does wonders for learning ma-ai, timing, decision-making ability (ketsudanryoku) and plain courage, things that are certanly as important in a fight, if not more so, than being able to cut a lot of mats. Also, there are many techniques in a real fight other than just taking a big honking swing at the guy. You don't need to split him from guggle to zatch to kill or disable him.

    For example, regarding the nukitsuke in MJER, I was taught that the target could be the eyes, the throat, the temple, or the attacking hand of the enemy. Thus, the nukitsuke I was taught is not necessarily for spiltting the enemy open, and it is not designed for that. The kirioroshi is the finishing stroke. However, there are many variations and interpretations of this even within MJER, so there is no one "right" way. For example, I was taught to never let the tip of the sword pass beyond the point of the right shoulder at the nukitsuke so that the point was always in a position to threaten the enemy and to leave no opening for him to attack. Others do it differently, slashing broadly and deeply across the chest so that the point passes far beyond the point where I was taught to stop it. Different strokes for different folks, I guess (pun intended).

    It is my opinion that a training regimen that comprises kata (solo and paired), free sparring, and some tameshigiri would be the most complete regimen. Each component, taken by itself, might be deficient, but taken together they complement each other well, I think.

    Also, while this is not a pleasant story, there was in our iai class a man who had been a soldier in China during the war. He related how he had executed POWs with his sword. He said that so long as the hasuji and targeting (between the vertebrae) were correct "it was like cutting tofu". If, however, the cutter had poor tenouchi and hasuji for whatever reason (usually panic at the thought of actually killing someone), the cut would go wrong and the sword might be damaged.
    Last edited by Earl Hartman; 4th March 2003 at 21:40.
    Earl Hartman

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    Good post Earl. Thanks for chiming in.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  10. #55
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    It is my opinion that a training regimen that comprises kata (solo and paired), free sparring, and some tameshigiri would be the most complete regimen. Each component, taken by itself, might be deficient, but taken together they complement each other well, I think
    This is why I do kendo as well as MJER. It helps remind me that the enemy doesn't just sit there and wait to be hit...it also helps my distance and timing. I have a lot of MA friends who do one or the other, not both, and struggle to understand why I do it. Tink the quote above would answer my questions quite nicely...

    Tim Hamilton
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

  11. #56
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    Re: what Earl said, about combining a variety of elements in your budo training, that's such a common-sense thing to do, I wonder why people don't realize it. There's a budo saying I first read in a book of Nakamura Taizaburo's on iaido, "ken to iai, ryorin," which means that kendo and iaido are like the two wheels of a cart: if they're both there, the cart can be used for a variety of purposes and will function well.

    On the other hand, if one or t'other wheel is missing, it's useless and isn't much more than lawn art (boy, I can just see it now: a Japanese bubba-san, with old jinrikisha or carts, the odd rezoko (fridge) in front of his wooden hut with the sliding doors. Probably chewing straw, dipping snuff, barefoot -- it beggars description.

    Another thing about iai: it's not just doing solo training and it can (but doesn't *have* to) include tameshigiri, sotai renshu (i.e., the partnered techniques) and a variety of other exercises. Likewise, training in kendo isn't *necessarily* restricted to shinai geiko and the odd bit of kata training with bokuto/mogito. Depends on the dojo, of course, but there are still places with training in kumiuchi and isshu geiko (ken v. naginata, ken v. yari, ken v. kusarigama). It's not too common these days, but they're still out there and it's a lot of fun to train with those folks.

    Check your ego at the door, before you enter, though: they've got some very interesting stuff.

  12. #57
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    With all do respect to Meik, Tim, Earl and the others who view Kendo as essential to their training, I'm afraid this is one area we are going to have to agree to disagree on. I am happy you get a lot out of both and I'm sorry that I do not posess the "common sense" to see that you are obviously correct.

    Kendo practice has never been a part of MJER's training techniques and so I see no reason to introduce it to my personal training regimen. If that makes me a lesser swordsmen in your eyes, so be it.

    As for tameshigiri, it is also not part of the Seitokai's formal training regimen and that's good enough for me.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  13. #58
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    Hey, Meik, long time no hear.

    Just a note on "mixed" training.

    My iai teacher, Masaoka Kazumi (Katsukane) was a graduate of the Senmon Budo Gakko (Busen) run by the Butokukai before WWII. In addition to the MJER iai heiho (his term for MJER) he learned from Oe Sensei in Kochi (which, apparently, made him quite a rarity at the Busen, since most people studying there had never seen it) he practiced kendo, naginata and kyujutsu at the Busen. After graduation, he became a kendo/iai teacher in Kanazawa.

    In short, he was not a "pure" iai practitioner. He was expert in iai and kendo; I do not know what ranks he may or may not have attained in naginata or kyujutsu, if any. As a matter of fact, he died "in harness" quite literally, succumbing to a sudden heart attack in the middle of a kendo practice.

    In addition, as I have stated in other places, MJER was originally a "sogo bujutsu", or comprehensive system, comprising solo iai kata, paired iai kata, an extensive yawara/kogusoku curriculum, some bojutsu, and some jo and torinawa techniques.

    The standard MJER curriculum practiced today is attenuated, and I don't think there is any way to deny that. I do not question the efficacy of practice as it is done now, since this is a stupid discussion, there being no way of "proving" that without recourse to the blade.

    However, Masaoka Sensei said a couple of, to me, extremely important things.

    First, he said when you do iai you must "mune no naka de teki wo tsukuru" ("create an enemy in your breast"); that is, clearly imagine an enemy in your mind and do your iai responding to the actions of this enemy.

    Second, regarding paired kata, he considered the practice of these to be absolutely essential to maintaining the combative efficacy of MJER. Without the paired kata, he states that "iai heiho will degenerate into a dance devoid of martial content" (my translation of his words in his book "Earth Book of MJER Iai Heiho"). I leave it to others to discuss whether or not this has, indeed, happened.

    Regarding kata, having done jo with Meik, I can attest that, properly done, kata can be almost as good as free sparring for training in things like intention and split-second decision-making skills. If you aren't on your toes, things can get mighty sticky mighty quick. However, most people don't train in kata this way; it is extremely difficult to do and requires attentive instruction and a really good senpai, in addition to close attention on the part of the trainee.

    There is always a lot of discussion about why, exactly, anybody bothers to practice this stuff anymore. I submit that if the primary reason for practicing is what the Japanese call "ningen keisei", or "creating a human"; that is, character development, it does not really matter what one does. Tea, flowers, swords, it's all good (of course, this depends on what kind of a person one wishes to become). If, however, one is actually interested in learning how to fight with a sword, for whatever reason, then it seems to me that kata is not enough.

    Like Charles said, what my teacher said is good enough for me. And he did iai and kendo.

    Also, I have been told that when the the present headmaster of the Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, Yagyu Nobuharu Sensei, was a young man he was made by his father to do shiai with modern kendo practitoners until he learned how to defeat them, not with modern kendo, but with correct Shinkage Ryu techniques. This, to me, speaks volumes.
    Earl Hartman

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    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    Hey, Meik, long time no hear.
    Second, regarding paired kata, he considered the practice of these to be absolutely essential to maintaining the combative efficacy of MJER. Without the paired kata, he states that "iai heiho will degenerate into a dance devoid of martial content" (my translation of his words in his book "Earth Book of MJER Iai Heiho"). I leave it to others to discuss whether or not this has, indeed, happened.
    Well you did leave it to others to discuss...

    In my opinion, no this has not happened. Of course I can only speak to my experience within the Seitokai. Paired excercise is still very much a part of the MJER curriculum starting at the intermediate levels of training. Most of the other branches still do it as well, some starting much earlier than we do.

    As to "Iaiheiho", that's still the term used on the rank certificates I have received through the Seitokai.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Hi Meik, hi Earl!

    Gee, I'm responding rather late. Since everybody is quoting famous teachers (Meik, thanks for plugging my teacher) ... I'll just add:
    "Iai, Kendo, Tameshigiri: Sansha Ittai" The unity of iai, kendo, and test cutting. -- or, to wax more poetic and a bit closer to the original, "Iai, Kendo, Test Cutting: Three individuals, one body."

    Nakamura sensei firmly believes that all three elements lead to a more balanced (and skilled) martial artist. Not saying one is better than the other; rather as was more eloquently said -- each compliments the other. This inclusiveness does not denigrate iaido, kendo, or cutting. Rather, strives to place equal emphasis on each of the three elements without overemphasizing any specific one. And as far as overemphasization goes -- Toyama Ryu and Nakamura Ryu were guilty of that for a while; however, Nakamura sensei got us all together and told us to quit overemphasizing cutting -- it is only a tool.

    If one conciously chooses to practice only one of the three elements -- or is otherwise unable to challenge the other two elements -- he is not "wrong;" rather, he just does not acquire as broad a range, and as deep an understanding of the "big picture." In my case, I'm solid in the iai and tameshigiri departments, but have less than two years of kendo (and I'm not going to go back at age 50!). However, I do believe the training in kendo allows me to have a deeper understanding of swordsmanship -- at least deeper than before.

    Meik and Earl, I bow to your superior knowledge and training! I know from experience not to cross blades/paths with you two!

    Heck, let's also throw in jukenjutsu! Meik???

    (Left) Senior Sergeant Nakamura at Camp Jinmu, Manchuria, ca. 1944.
    Note the makiwara in the background? One for thrusts, one for cuts.

    Regards,
    Guy
    [Skoss Budo Ranch Wanna-be]
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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