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Thread: iaido and tameshigiri

  1. #61
    Meik Skoss Guest

    Default over-senseitive ninnies

    Anent "bad impressions" from World War II jukenjutsu, it ended a long time ago and, in case some people haven't noticed, the war is, like, OVER. If folks want to keep carrying it around, that's their problem and has got *nothing* to do with the art.

    At the time of the Second Budo Culture Seminar in 1989, organized by the Nippon Budokan and in co-operation of BuDai (IBU), several senior non-Japanese budoka in Japan were consulted about how it might be organized. I suggested jukendo be presented as one of the arts for budo taiken (an opportunity to try a different/new martial art for an hour's practice). It was interesting how people at the Budokan were concerned that jukendo had a "bad image" and they were worried we non-Japanese might have a negative reaction to it.

    My response, supported by others in the group was that we did not think there was a problem now, that the current art was an entirely different entity, and that people would be interested. In point of fact, that's the way it worked out. Several people have begun the art (my wife and I, for example) and we haven't got an issue with its past history. Indeed, we've learned many valuable things from senior exponents/teachers who actually used the art in combat. Likewise, talking with American WWII vets about their experiences has also provided me with several major insights. It is ALL "grist for the mill," as the saying goes.

    This PC bulls--t has gotta stop somewhere; why not on e-Budo?

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    Originally posted by ghp
    Nakamura sensei firmly believes that all three elements lead to a more balanced (and skilled) martial artist. Not saying one is better than the other; rather as was more eloquently said -- each compliments the other.
    All I'm saying is that while Nakamura sensei believes this of your style, not all instructors believe it of theirs.

    If one conciously chooses to practice only one of the three elements -- or is otherwise unable to challenge the other two elements -- he is not "wrong;" rather, he just does not acquire as broad a range, and as deep an understanding of the "big picture."
    It is the opinion of the Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Seitokai as led by both Fukui-soke and Ikeda-soke that this assertion is incorrect for us. I have no doubt that it is essential to your system, or Nakamura-sensei would most likely not have made such statements.

    Tanida-sensei made a point over dinner when he was in town. He was specifically referring to the Tameshigiri crowd. You will have to forgive me, I did not write it down(gotta remember to start wearing a wire when he comes to town). It went something like this:
    We do not understand why they do what they do. They do not understand why we do what we do. We don't comment on what they do, and they don't comment on what we do.
    He of course was talking about the situation in Japan not the situation here as it is common practice for Americans in the JSA to publicly state their opinions of other styles and training systems.

    I respect your loyalty to your instructor. From everything I have heard he deserves that loyalty, but I respectfully object to the assertion that our training methods are insufficient. They are quite sufficient for our style. We simply have a difference of opinion.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Default Re: over-senseitive ninnies

    Originally posted by Meik Skoss
    Anent "bad impressions" from World War II jukenjutsu, it ended a long time ago and, in case some people haven't noticed, the war is, like, OVER. If folks want to keep carrying it around, that's their problem and has got *nothing* to do with the art.

    At the time of the Second Budo Culture Seminar in 1989, organized by the Nippon Budokan and in co-operation of BuDai (IBU), several senior non-Japanese budoka in Japan were consulted about how it might be organized. I suggested jukendo be presented as one of the arts for budo taiken (an opportunity to try a different/new martial art for an hour's practice). It was interesting how people at the Budokan were concerned that jukendo had a "bad image" and they were worried we non-Japanese might have a negative reaction to it.

    My response, supported by others in the group was that we did not think there was a problem now, that the current art was an entirely different entity, and that people would be interested. In point of fact, that's the way it worked out. Several people have begun the art (my wife and I, for example) and we haven't got an issue with its past history. Indeed, we've learned many valuable things from senior exponents/teachers who actually used the art in combat. Likewise, talking with American WWII vets about their experiences has also provided me with several major insights. It is ALL "grist for the mill," as the saying goes.

    This PC bulls--t has gotta stop somewhere; why not on e-Budo?

    The japanese government denies this

    http://www.cnd.org/njmassacre/photos/bayonet1.jpg

    ever happened.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  4. #64
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    Lightbulb kendo and training

    originally posted by Charles Mahan
    With all do respect to Meik, Tim, Earl and the others who view Kendo as essential to their training, I'm afraid this is one area we are going to have to agree to disagree on. I am happy you get a lot out of both and I'm sorry that I do not posess the "common sense" to see that you are obviously correct.
    Kendo practice has never been a part of MJER's training techniques and so I see no reason to introduce it to my personal training regimen. If that makes me a lesser swordsmen in your eyes, so be it.
    As for tameshigiri, it is also not part of the Seitokai's formal training regimen and that's good enough for me.
    Full disclosure: I practice MJER iai and Charles is my sempai under John Ray sensei. In both iai and kendo, I am a novice.

    That being said, I have the following observations:

    It really does seem to me that whatever methods of training outside the normal curriculum (in this case, our MJER system) can't really hurt, unless you're doing something completely contradictory to what you're being taught in class. This can include using a suburito, tameshigiri, smacking an old tire with a bokken and kendo. In the case of tameshigiri, our system has banned that simply because of it's connotations with WWII, from what I understand, and NOT because of any lack of efficacy. I agree with Charles that it isn't essential that you do kendo, but I agree that it does help your seme in class if you face a real, live opponent every now and then. I'm also a bit confused, as there are paired kata in MJER, but at a level above my shodan-ho area.

    KIm Taylor said once on the iaido-L that he knew that weight lifting wasn't part of his MJER curriculum, but his cuts alweays felt stronger and he hd more control when he worked out regularly. I've experienced the same thing to some degree. I've also felt a difference after whacking the old tire (no innuendos here, please) with my bokken.

    I'd also further point out that one or our sensei in Japan, Tanida Hiroshi sensei, junhanshi hachidan, doesn't use a suburito or do tameshigiri or kendo (although he did do both kendo and jukendo earlier in life) or, as far as I know, whack tires with bokken, but I'll be damned if he doesn't display the finest seme that I've ever seen.

    However, to anyone using the argument that "you HAVE TO have X method in your system or it isn't real swordsmanship," I think the argument can always be trumped by "unless you live and die by the sword, you really don't know."
    Last edited by Aozora; 6th March 2003 at 17:52.
    --Neil Melancon--

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    Default Re: kendo and training

    Originally posted by Aozora
    It really does seem to me that whatever methods of training outside the normal curriculum (in this case, our MJER system) can't really hurt, unless you're doing something completely contradictory to what you're being taught in class.
    I never said that training outside of the normal cuuriculum was likely to hurt. Just making the point that it is not deemed necessary. If it was, it would be a part of regular training.

    I'm also a bit confused, as there are paired kata in MJER, but at a level above my shodan-ho area.
    The kumi-tachi stuff is an intermediate level training tool. It is essentially 4/5th dan and up within the Seitokai although some other branches apparently start sooner.

    I'd also further point out that one or our sensei in Japan, Tanida Hiroshi sensei, junhanshi hachidan, doesn't use a suburito or do tameshigiri or kendo (although he did do both kendo and jukendo earlier in life) or, as far as I know, whack tires with bokken, but I'll be damned if he doesn't display the finest seme that I've ever seen.
    Precisely. As for tameshigiri, I don't know the whole story as to why it was banned, but I think it had something to do with too many folks focusing on cutting instead of building the fighting spirit that is so essential to MJER. Thus it was banned from regular workouts. I'm actually not certain if that ban officially extends to private workouts or not. At any rate it is not deemed necessary by the ryu. What the kendo folks get from Kendo, I believe we are expected to learn through the Tachi Uchi no Kurai and eventually through Kae waza.

    Oh and don't get me wrong. Participation in other martial arts is not banned or anything. It's not even frowned upon. It is quite common I think. My arguement centers on whether or not is necessary to do so to gain as Mr. Power put it, "a broad range" and, "a deep understanding of the 'big picture'". I'm trying to make the case that the MJER curriculum is complete in this regard in and of itself. You just have to stick it out until you've gotten it all. Which is gonna take awhile. It's a VERY deep system.

    Is it likely that training in Kendo and Iaido at the same time might get you there faster? Perhaps, but only if your study of Iai did not suffer because of the extra time you are putting into Kendo. Of course that begs the question would that time have been better spent increasing the time you study your chosen koryu instead of studying Kendo?
    Last edited by Charles Mahan; 6th March 2003 at 18:01.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Ive often thought about spending time doing two different yet complimentary arts, and how I could simply focus on just one. A few years ago I made a decision not to take up niten ichi ryu, which I would love to do if I had the time, jodo also I felt I couldnt do because of lack of time. I think its because I started with kendo that I keep it going, sort of an addiction by now, bit like iaido! Whether or not I stick at it in the future remains to be seen, as I have already dropped one nights kendo to do another nights iaido class.
    Interestingly enough some of the good teachers of MJER do or did kendo, Oe sensei included, and my teacher has 8th dan kendo as well as his MJER grades. Whether or not this is down to the fact that kendo was part of the school curriculum or whatever would be interesting to find out, so I will ask next time I see him. He regularly quotes examples of good teachers and often includes kendo people, so there must be something in it.
    Personally I find kendo compliments the iaido and vice versa, though this may just be my outlook.
    I certainly wouldn't force anyone to do it who was in my iaido class, although I do get them to 'have a go' to determine how well they appreciate timing and distance with a moving target. People who do not have any one-to-one sparring experience find it quite surprising at how difficult it is to hit someone...

    Tim Hamilton
    Tim Hamilton

    Why are you reading this instead of being out training? No excuses accepted...

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    Default Re: kendo and training

    Originally posted by Charles Mahan


    I never said that training outside of the normal cuuriculum was likely to hurt. Just making the point that it is not deemed necessary. If it was, it would be a part of regular training.
    Just for the record, I never said you did.

    As for the rest of your post, think we're in agreement that it's really about getting what you want out of it, and what it takes to keep you going to see the whole system. You make an excellent point not only about MJER, but koryu in general. Even after a few years into it, a practitioner is unlikely to have seen in the majority of it. Sticking with it is part of the whole deal, part of the shugyo.

    And yes, I could be devoting every last ounce of time I have to iai exclusively. *insert guilt trip here* I think in doing so, as was done in the past, the time table of learning the techniques would be moved up some, but that's just speculation on my part. For my own personal path, since I'm six hours from you guys, I get what I can where I can.

    As for the necessities in training, I do not think it is strictly necessary for me to do kendo or anything else. However, what I do think is necessary is the lessons I've learned in judo and Aikido from hitting the mat, or in kendo from facing pressure from another swordsman are critical and necessary to any system. I would argue that some lessons are easier or more accessible from different systems or training methods, which I think explains part of the diversity of those systems.
    --Neil Melancon--

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    Just for the record, Oe Sensei made his living as an instructor of "gekken" ("attacking sword", one of the pre-WWII names for kendo) so he, obviously, did not feel that kendo and iai were mutually exclusive.

    As has been discussed on this forum in many places many times by many people, in the days when warriors actually had to fight, they could not concentrate on one weapon to the exclusion of others, they had to be familiar with the use of various weapons. The kind of specialization we see now is a result of the fact that people don't actually fight with these weapons anymore.

    Kendo is good training mainly for learning how to interact with a real enemy, who is moving around and doing his best to hit you without gettng hit himself. Unfortunately, due to the artificiality of the rules (where to strike, how to strike, the fact that a blow not delivered properly on target can be ignored since it will not be a point even if it hits you) it can be counterproductive if one thinks that kendo technique actually bears much resemblance to real swordfighting. It can, but in general practice I don't think it really does for most people. A lot of kendo technique, properly done, is very strong. However, it is limited because of the need to promote it as a martial art sport that can be practiced by large numbers of people. However, if the role of sparring is properly understood, it can be very valuable.
    Earl Hartman

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    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    Just for the record, Oe Sensei made his living as an instructor of "gekken" ("attacking sword", one of the pre-WWII names for kendo) so he, obviously, did not feel that kendo and iai were mutually exclusive.
    No one has suggested otherwise.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    I'm not so sure. You seem quite adamant that it is unnecessary.

    Personally, I think the lack of any emphasis on free sparring among a lot of iai people is smply due to the modern Japanese tendency to emphasize compartmentalization and specialization. I remember that when I lived in Japan a lot of kendo guys thought that I should be concentrating on kendo and kendo alone, since spending time on other things would impede my progress in kendo. Their approach was "get good at one thing first, the worry about other stuff later (maybe)". (They were probably questioning my decision to practice kyudo rather than questioning my iai practice, however).

    I just think that this is a function of specialization in a modern time of peace where the emphasis is on perfecting one's art as opposed to actually learning how to fight. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, necessarily. The bugei have changed and don't have the same role that they used to.
    Earl Hartman

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    As a point of interest, Oe Masamichi trained in the same Gekken dojo as Sakamoto Ryoma. The name of their instructor escapes me and I am too lazy to go dig through my notes. Apparently their gekken instructor was the one who influenced them in moving to shorter swords (both men are well documented as advocating shorter swords for use in Meiji restoration period combat) while much of the Tosa han were still carrying their traditional "you'll see my sword before you see me" swords. That being said, Oe being a rather large man for his time, still used a rather large sword judging by the few pictures I have been able to find of him practicing iai.
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

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    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    I'm not so sure. You seem quite adamant that it is unnecessary.
    If I may be so bold, I think Charles is saying this ONLY in reference to studying MJER. I agree with him... you don't need to study kendo in order to get a "complete" system of swordsmanship through MJER iai. That isn't to say that kendo isn't valid, that you need to study MJER in order to "get" kendo, etc, etc, blah blah blah. I think ultimately all roads lead to the same destination, and that each art draws out certain aspects, particularly at first.
    --Neil Melancon--

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    Originally posted by Earl Hartman
    I'm not so sure. You seem quite adamant that it is unnecessary.
    Unnecessary and mutually exclusive are two entirely different concepts. And remember I am only arguing from the standpoint of MJER, particularly as practiced by the Seitokai. Other ryu may indeed recommend that their membership participate in other forms of training outside the regular focus of the ryu.

    I've never stated that training in kendo to improve your primary style is a bad thing, although I did suggest that if the goal is to get better at your primary style, then it might be better to spend your time working on your primary style. If on the other hand, your goal is to get good at Kendo and good at Iai then by all means do both.

    If I'm not mistaken large numbers of Seitokai MJER folks are also ZNKR folks as well, but where the ZNKR officially encourages it's membership to seek out koryu Iai, the Seitokai does not officially encourage it's membership to seek out kendo. Nor does it discourage kendo or even tameshigiri as I understand it. Tameshigiri is simply prohibited from being an official part of regular trianing.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Talking 1993?

    Is the MJER policy of no tameshigiri in place before or after the 1993 Demo in Arizona?

    Just curious....
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    There are a lot of different MJER groups (associations, branches, factions, whatever you want to call them). Some do tameshigiri, some don't.

    I can't remember the name of the group, but there is an MJER group run by Sekiguchi Sensei (I think that's his name). They use very long swords. They did tameshigiri at the Kobudo Enbu Taikai in February at the Budokan the last time I was there.
    Earl Hartman

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