Togakure Ryu Lineage Question

[ChrisMoon]

I am probably going to get hate mail and flamed for this, but I have a legit question that I need answered. I mean no disrespect to anyone or anyone organization. I just want to get to the bottom of this.

Recently while doing my research into the ryuha of the Bujinkan I have ran into questions about the history of the Togakure Ryu and it's lineage. I have talked to a few respected historians and researchers and the lineage given by Takamatsu in 1930s has been suspect for sometime. I was told by one reseacher that some of the names were the same as characters from pulp fiction ninja novels of the period. Another researcher wrote me and said there is no documentation of Togakure Ryu pre Meiji. Can anyone help me clear this up?

I have been very uneasy about writing this because I do not want anyone to think that I have any disrespect for Masaaki Hatsumi or anyone in the Bujinkan. I am actually preparing for a trip to Japan at the end of the summer for two months of training.

My email is bcmoon2003@yahoo.com if anyone would prefer to write me there.


Christopher Moon

[Kamiyama]

This subject is really funny. My reasons for having such amusement with this subject is... it would be ninjutsu to make up such a wonderful story...kyojitsu tenkan ho... wouldn't you expect this anyway ?

Does it matter if Togakure ryuha is older than Takamatsu sensei or even Hatsumi sensei ?

In my opinion I could care less... Hatsumi sensei is all that's important to me.

kamiyama, ralph severe

[El Guapo-san]

Look, these questions come up time and again. If you want to have a look at things, see what the validity is, shouldn't bother anybody. I, for one, like reading the Kuki family website, which gives a bunch of the Takamatsu history with them. The emporer's living treasurer award kind of does it for me. Maybe I'm completely wrong, but I would imagine that those guys check everything out quite thoroughly.

Think of it this way, if you're a recognized expert at something and renowned for being a master at centuries' old arts, why should you legitimize yourself to everyone who comes along? If someone shows up from the emporer, though, and says "before we give you an award, do you mind if we trouble you to ask a few humble questions? ", it's going to be a different story. I mean, imagine the loss of face in Japan for the emporer if he's shown to have given a highly prestigious award to a fraud.

Further, go see about Genbukan and what historical stuff is there. It's more or less the same lineage. On the way, you may learn more about Japanese culture (firsthand is always best), which may help fill in the gaps.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

[Eric Baluja]

Think of it this way, if you're a recognized expert at something and renowned for being a master at centuries' old arts, why should you legitimize yourself to everyone who comes along?

Because if you're making claims to 34 generations /c. 900 years of history, in effect making yours the oldest ryu-ha of Japanese traditional martial arts ever, and ryu-ha as such didn't even come into existence until c. 500 years ago, you need to put up or shut up. If Takamatsu Sensei or Hatsumi Sensei is the orginator of these things, someone needs to step up and stop perpetuating what in some circles amounts to fraud. And people need to stop making apologies for the fraud. Hatsumi Sensei is certainly a charismatic teacher, but if the core of what he presents is inauthentic, it permeates and dirties the entire endeavor and everyone who engages in it, regardless of their best intentions.

Don't mind me, I just need some coffee. Please return to your regularly scheduled programming.

[El Guapo-san]

You missed the point. I was talking about the emporer, Kukis, etc.

J. Vlach, Amsterdam

[Eric Baluja]

The original question was specifically about Togakure-ryu, not Kukishin-ryu. Also, the award is very nice but does not even implicitly support the claims about Togakure-ryu. It's like letting Pete Rose into the Baseball Hall of Fame -- it doesn't legitimize his criminal activities.

[Bradenn]

Eric,
Aren't you in the Jinenkan? I read a nice article you wrote a while ago.
If the Togakure Ryu history is a fraud then doesn't that mean Manaka-sensei is teaching a fraudulent art?

[Jeff O]

Chris Moon,

A different way to look at it....

You may want to consider analyzing some of the historical Bujinkan lineages from the standpoint of kuden instead of koryu. A lot of the forms and kata of the Bujinkan date back in concept and strategy for many generations. These were word-of-mouth and family stories, passed down from family member to family member, or friend to friend, for years. Enter the 20th Century, and people began writing some of these ideas down.

History is usually recorded by the victors or a governing body of any state. It may be worth investigating what "other" history might exist, if even verbally. My grandfather was in WWII, and has told some interesting stories that were certainly not written down the way the military recorded them.

Native Americans have countless kuden that stretch back hundreds of years, perhaps thousands. The fact that just last century they began documenting on paper their generations, does this make them fraudulent? Or unable to prove they existed?

Certainly not all of the Bujinkan Ryu-ha are this way; the Kukishin & Takagi Ryu-ha's are well documented into the pre-Edo era. Look into the Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Togakure Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, etc and you may end up finding that many of these ryu-ha were different groups or specialists who branched off their koshijutsu or koppojutsu family. In 2001, Hatsumi Sensei commented quite a bit about the Gyokushin movements being a branch of the Gyokko Ryu family.

Remember that a very large portion of Japan could not read or write before WWII.

Ask yourself this - how many generations of shoe-tying are there? Does this mean that no one knew how to tie a shoe before it was written down? Gosh, there must have been a lot of people tripping in the civil war.....

Enjoy looking into the history and every day life of Pre-Edo, Sengoku, and even the Muramachi Era of Japan. Study the methods people used to live their life, and I think you'll grasp the ideas of the Bujinkan's history with more fluidity.

There was a great article on E-budo from a few years ago by Sean Askew (Bujinkan Judan) explaining the ideas of the Bujinkan Ryu-ha as kuden, and not koryu. It would be well worth the read....

Good luck!

[ChrisMoon]

Hi,

Thank you for reply. That helps shed some light on things to a degree. I have gotten some hate mail to my yahoo account for my question. I think that is rather unfortunate. Anyhow, I don't want anyone to think that just because I am asking questions that I am writing off the Bujinkan or Hatsumi-sensei. If I had any doubts about his genius I would not be saving all my money on making the trip there. I would not have been trading letters with Ishizuka-sensei since 1987. Or would I have spent thousands of dollars collecting every videotape and book that Hatsumi-sensei has ever written.

Anyway back to your post. I will be looking into what you write and the kuden. I seriously hope I can find the answers that satisfies the historian in me. A historian at a Japanese University just floated a theory to me that would make sense about the lineage. I will keep digging and asking.

happy aloha wednesday

[Bradenn]

Originally posted by ChrisMoon
Hi,

I have gotten some hate mail to my yahoo account for my question. I think that is rather unfortunate.

Just ignore those people. They are bullies at heart. If they threaten or mock you it's a sign of their own insecurity.

[Eric Baluja]

Hi. I'm back, but not for long.

Originally posted by Bradenn
Eric, Aren't you in the Jinenkan?

More or less.

If the Togakure Ryu history is a fraud then doesn't that mean Manaka-sensei is teaching a fraudulent art?

I never said Togakure-ryu was a fraud. What I said was that, if it's not, which seems unlikely given all the scholarship and research that has gone into the subject of koryu, then someone needs to justify the claims of a 900-year, 34-generation history or (1) stop making those claims and (2) prevent one's acolytes from parroting those claims.

[Eric Baluja]

Originally posted by Jeff O
History is usually recorded by the victors or a governing body of any state.

...those who hold this view have a fantasy that there is this monolithic conspiracy of silence, and that all history is written by the "victors," patrons of samurai. In fact, outside the school system, which is controlled by the government, Japan has as free and revisionist a group of historians as america, if not more so.

Another fantasy is that Japanese, historians and otherwise, are enamoured of samurai and budo. An affection for martial arts, particularly old martial arts, is considered right wing, old-fashioned, and possibly fascist. Most Japanese would have no vested interest in maintaining a skewed view of bushi as "good guys." Although the ethos of many bushi is admired, as are doctrines or famous men, the japanese are far more realistic about their men-at-arms than most american budoka. For example, school books mention the 3000+ farmer's revolts against taxes and oppression in the Edo period, which were put down by samurai with guns, after the peasants often beat back the sword armed warriors with their hoes and picks. Ellis Amdur, Araki-ryu, Toda-ha Buko-ryu, from an e-budo discussion.

Native Americans have countless kuden that stretch back hundreds of years, perhaps thousands. The fact that just last century they began documenting on paper their generations, does this make them fraudulent? Or unable to prove they existed?

There's no doubt that Hatsumi Sensei is Japanese. My point: This isn't a very good comparison, in my opinion.

Ask yourself this - how many generations of shoe-tying are there? Does this mean that no one knew how to tie a shoe before it was written down? Gosh, there must have been a lot of people tripping in the civil war.....

Uh...you're kidding, right? 'Cause if you're not, now you’re really comparing apples to atom bombs!

Respectfully (believe it or not),

[matthew18]

hi all

well i was discussing this kinda subject the other day with a mate,
what if Takamatsu sensei & Hatsumi sensei got together in the 1960's and discussed a money making scheme using ninjutsu?. Since it is very interesting and little was known about it. Takamatsu maybe bought some scrolls from a family who didnt want them. (like u can today in modern japan for a price) and called it ninjutsu?

But even if this was true, WHO CARES! who cares if the lineages dont exsist. Just to see Hatsumi sensei in action does it for me, when u see him in action, it all becomes REAL. His techniques work, what more can be said.

But from a serious personal perspective, i do think the lineages are real.

just a thought

matthew morgan
Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu

[Karyu]

Togakure Ryu isn't the only school with such claims, there are many Koryu schools with lineages over 30 generations. Most ryu-ha weren't formalized until after 1600, that does not mean they didn't exist, as they were most certainly used before the Sengoku Jidai. With many schools, they began keeping track of lineage only after the warring states period but some, such as Togakure Ryu and Gyokko Ryu, trace their lineage all the way back to China. Gyokko Ryu is, in fact, recognized by many Koryu groups as having a legitimate lineage of over 28 generations.

And please read back a few posts, I think this question has been asked and answered a hundred times...

[poryu]

Hi

Karyu
What koryu groups recognise Gyokko Ryu. This is the first time i have heard this. As far as i was aware Hatsumi was no a member of any recognised Koryu groups/organisation. if this is correct then when and how did Gyokko Ryu get recognised. I would be very interested if you have more info please.

Matt Morgan
If Takamatsu and Hatsumi came up with a money making idea then it didnt really work then did it. (let me ocntinue). You see by the time Takamatsu died Hatsumi had around 20 studnets, and from what i here they all trained for free, not very profitable is it. The money making started when S.hayes started the Taikais going. Hatsumi saw the amount of money Hayes was making and decided that as he was doing all the teaching he should be paid. Too right he should.

so the money making started. Unfortunately this money making has blow way out of proportion and every man and his dog seems to thing he has the right now in the bujinkan to over charge for events so he can make a pretty packet for his japan trips.

The Togakure Ryu can not 100% prove its lineage prior to Takamatsu. We have Hatsumi/Takamatsu's word that Toda existed and that he passed the Ryu to Takamatsu. Not one person in the X-Kana - includingt he heads of the oganisations can find or provide absolute evidence that Toda did in fact live and that he wa sa part of Togakure Ryu.

I have also heard this claim by many researchers that Soke names have appeared in Manga comics. Who says they didnt take them from the comics, or from the scrolls in to the comics. Have any of these people provided the names of the manga or the actual manga themselves to back up these claims.

I once had an instructor write to me asking if I could track a family name int he Togakure Ryu. It seemed one of his students was Jap[anese had the identical name to one of the Togakure Ryu soke. i couldnt, but would this mean this guy was family or wa she realy the same man - now 450 years old (ooooh Ninja magic)

I have walked down the street with my daughter she was holding hands with me and my friend. he is also called Paul Richardson. Just because she was holding hands with 2 Paul Richardson's at the same time (scary thought) does this mean this guy is her father just because he shares the same name as me.

unfortunately we have to accept that prior to Takamatsu we may be will NEVER find absolute fact about the origin of Togakure Ryu. many Ryu ha are loaded with Folk law and we have to accept that this ryu is maybe one of them.

Also take into consideration that many people have repeatedly commented that prior to Toda/Takamatsu this Ryu wa skuden - why? as previously stated people couldnt read or write, so they passed info by word of mouth.

A great example of this is the Daito Ryu Aikijujuts. Sokukaku Takeda culdnt not read or write. Many of his students had to write there own menkyo (even Menkyo Kaiden) does this make these menkyo fake - No

If your researching the history good luck to you. I gave up on this Ryu a long time ago