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Thread: Wado Ryu?

  1. #1
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    Default Wado Ryu?

    Just found out that a fellow employee is a BB in Wado-Ryu. Unfortunately, I know nothing about the style other than how to spell it (at least I hope I got it right).

    I am a Japanese Goju practitioner....can someone explain, in not too many words, the differences between his style (Wado) and mine?

    I don't want to argue about whose style is better, or more authentic, or more original. I just want to know what the differences (or similarities) are, so that I can discuss his style with a little bit of knowledge/intelligence.

    Thanks
    Ron Rompen
    Goju Ryu
    Kitchener, Ont

  2. #2
    Gene Williams Guest

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    Hi, Wado-ryu was founded by Hironori Otsuka (1892-1981) and is an outgrowth of Shotokan and the Shindo Muso-ryu Jujutsu that Otsuka studied. He was a student of Funakoshi, as well as others, and a very respected practitioner, a meijin, I believe. Wado uses the Shotokan kata, with some slight variations, and a very direct approach to applications. Traditional art, good people.
    There were a lot of Wado practitioners in and around Nashville,Tenn. in the 70's and 80's. I know of a good school in Lakeland Fla. It is about as different from Goju as you can get in kaate. Gene

  3. #3
    n2shotokai Guest

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    I was also under the impression that Wado-ryu had a very strong base in competition kumite. Other people whom I have chatted with who have sparred with Wado dudes were impressed with their capabilities.

    Steve Beale

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    Ron,

    I practise wado-ryu karate. I started training 12 years ago stopped training on a regular basis 6 yrs ago and recently started training again. It’s difficult for me to compare wado to goju, since I have little experience with your style. Also I am hardly an expert in my own style, I am up for my third kyu exam.
    In my opinion a wado stylist is able to use:
    evading moves to take the body out of the line of attack
    sweeping block techniques (nagashi uke) which alter the direction of a full force attack only slightly (just enough).
    blocking and countering techniques using the same hand during one body movement.

    Trainees are taught to be relaxed before and after a technique and only to focus your energy at the moment of impact, something I still find difficult to do. This is something, I think, we have in common with Shito and is a noticeable difference with some other styles.
    Some good documentation on the life of Ohtsuka sensei and the origins of our style are available on the Shikukai Chelmsford Website http://www.wadoryu.org.uk/. Ohtsuka Sensei was granted the Menkyo Kaiden (acknowledgement of full transmission) in Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu by Master Nakayama in 1921. In 1922 he started training with Funakoshi sensei.

    Hoped this helped you.


    Casper Baar,
    Beverwijk, the Netherlands

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    Default Inasu, Nagasu, etc.

    Casper,

    Could you take a moment to explain the wado concepts of Inasu, Nagasu and Noru, and others that I may have forgotten?

    Rob

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    Thanks for the information guys. I will check out the website and see what info I can pick up.
    Ron Rompen
    Goju Ryu
    Kitchener, Ont

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    Rob,

    Some of the wado concepts are also described at http://www.sannoya.com/principles.html.
    To give you some further information from a personal perspective.

    When attacked you move out of the way of the attack,. This is done simplest by stepping straight back.
    Advantage: you’re not hit
    Disadvantage: you’re back where you started from.

    For example a mae geri chudan attack
    Instead of changing the direction of the attack, blocking hard, we try to change the place of the attacked. Stepping aside instead of backwards.
    This is done easiest done by stepping backwards and slightly out of the direction of the mae geri. The block then becomes an act of guiding the attack in the direction of where its already going or just changing the direction a bit.
    Advantage is that you end in a position where its easier to unbalance the opponent or where his back is open to an attack (depending on which side you stepped to).

    A more difficult form (there is less time to apply this spontaneously) is just stepping aside or even aside and forward.
    If you manage to do this you can counterattack using the attackers momentum.

    Another description is at http://www.bskonline.com/characteristics.htm although the text here sometimes reads as if the author is trying to sell wado by denigrating other styles.
    This third site has some kata’s and kumite on avi movies. The site is dutch but the links to kata and kumite are simply found. http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~martg/

    Hope the above makes sense. It will at the least demonstrate why karate can’t be learnt by reading about it.

    Greetings,

    Casper Baar

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    Rob, I started my training in Wado Ryu. You might find these notes from my as yet unpublished study on the history etc of Wado Ryu of some use.
    "A senior teacher of Wado Ryu Yoshiaki Ajari explains that ‘The essence of Wado can be summed up in three basic concepts : Nagasu - to deflect the incoming attack; Inasu - to shift the body in order to remove oneself from the line of the attack; and Noru - to strike the opponent before his forward momentum has come to a stop.
    Noru literaly means to ride. If we strike an opponent after he has stopped his forward movement, then we strike him with our own strength; but if one can strike before the opponent stops moving, the damage is greater by the factor of him moving into the punch. In a sense we ‘ride’ his body.’
    Dojo magazine Fall 1992

    Ajari sensei explains that ‘these are not Ohtsuka sensei’s words but Japanese martial arts words. He utilised these words for his techniques. And he stressed ‘ten gi’ changing techniques, combining one technique with body action. Then ‘ten tai’ moving the body away from the line of attack and ‘nagasu’, in English ‘to float’. In other words don’t oppose an attack, just flow with it like water runs along a stream.’ "
    Dragon Times Vol 9.
    Yours,
    Harry Cook

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    Thank you very much, Harry. That helps.
    I really need to go over and See Ajari sensei. He's only about 45 min away. I typically see him at association tournaments, but I'm usually too busy officiating to sit down with him.

    Rob

  10. #10
    Machimura Guest

    Default Checkin' it out...

    After reading a couple of things on those sights provided, I have come to the conclusion that Ohtsuka Sensei revolutionized karate. He implemented the idea of ashi sabaki, taisabaki, grappling and whipping strikes. Wow. I never even heard of Japanese Wado until a few years ago. I do know that Ohtsuka wanted to make a purely "Japanese" form of karate.

    It seems he was trying to reinvent the wheel, or maybe because of his teacher's lessons, never even saw the wheel. Sorry for the cynicism, but the principles expressed in Wado seem vaguely familiar somehow. I understand it is an attempt by O'Sensei Ohtsuka to make Japanese karate more user friendly. It seems as though (somehow) he came to similar conclusions as the Okinawan progenitors of To-di. Hmmmm. Still, from what I've seen the stances are still too wide and a lot of "block then strike" stuff is prevalent. Plus the emphasis on kumite and "advanced" positioning at Dan levels is ridiculous. Kumite is slap-tag, a false confidence booster, and "getting out of the way" should be the first thing taught in any karate. PERIOD.

    The principles espoused by this style are new in that people didn't know that that stuff already existed in karate. It was there, but on a more "experience" based level. Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu, Tuite, Shaolin Chuan Fa and whatever else influenced the Ryukyus ifluenced Okinawan Karate. Real karate is a complete fighting art. It's just so weird to hear Japanese stylists state over-and-over that the 4 styles of karate are Shotokan, Goju Ryu, Shito Ryu and Wado Ryu. This gives the average person, and even many "martialists", the wrong info. There are many styles of karate. Where is the "best" Japanese karate on this list-- Kyokushin and its offshoots? That's why I sometimes facetiously lump Kyokushikai with Shotokan.

    The only karate that exists are those of Naha Te and Shuri Te lineage. Tomari Te has been integrated with the 2 major schools, so it is rarely mentioned, but the principles are still inherent in good Okinawan karate (especially Shuri Te). So the only karate that exists for those who really know, are those of Shuri (Shorin) and Naha (Shorei) lineage. Including the latter and ignoring the former doesn't make reality any different. Wado, Shotokan and Shito are Matsumura Ha (ShuriTe) as well as Higaonna Ha (Naha Te). Why the Shorin Ryu exclusion in the Japanese MAS hierarchy? Scared of reality? Anyway, Japanese Goju's origins are self-explanatory.

    So the 3 major schools of original karate thought are Shorin Ryu, Goju Ryu and Uechi Ryu. Anything else is a subsystem of a subsystem, no matter how "major" the Japanese want these more "modern" forms to be. Searching for what is there is a good thing if you really want to find it! No need to reformulate a successful formula. Wado does seem like a "tight" style as the youngsters say. Ohtsuka "added" principles that were already there in good Okinawan karate. No need for the JJJ b/c Shaolin, Tuite and Jigen Ryu gots that locked up. Yeah.

    Just my 2 centavos....

    Bryan Cyr

  11. #11
    Meik Skoss Guest

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    Just for the record, Otsuka Hironori studied Shinto Yoshin-ryu. *not* Shinto Muso-ryu. Shinto Yoshin-ryu is a jUjutsu system, Muso-ryu is jOjutsu. Big difference.

    Nowadays, Shinto Yoshin-ryu is practised very little in Japan, though it is done apparently here in the U.S. some (contact Toby Threadgill, himself a Wado-ryu exponent for more information) and in Europe (Sweden, I think).

    Hope this helps.

  12. #12
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    I think karate stops being karate in the exact moment that the person that is training/teaching is not working towards human refinement...
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

  13. #13
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    Exclamation

    Sorry for my last post... I missed the thread...
    Filipe Magalhães

    ::: Search Your Inside :::


    "True refinement seeks simplicity."

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    Default Re: Checkin' it out...

    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Machimura
    [B]After reading a couple of things on those sights provided, I have come to the conclusion that Ohtsuka Sensei revolutionized karate. He implemented the idea of ashi sabaki, taisabaki, grappling and whipping strikes. Wow. I never even heard of Japanese Wado until a few years ago. I do know that Ohtsuka wanted to make a purely "Japanese" form of karate.

    It seems he was trying to reinvent the wheel, or maybe because of his teacher's lessons, never even saw the wheel. Sorry for the cynicism, but the principles expressed in Wado seem vaguely familiar somehow. I understand it is an attempt by O'Sensei Ohtsuka to make Japanese karate more user friendly. It seems as though (somehow) he came to similar conclusions as the Okinawan progenitors of To-di. Hmmmm. Still, from what I've seen the stances are still too wide and a lot of "block then strike" stuff is prevalent. Plus the emphasis on kumite and "advanced" positioning at Dan levels is ridiculous. Kumite is slap-tag, a false confidence booster, and "getting out of the way" should be the first thing taught in any karate. PERIOD.

    To Bryan,
    The current Grandmaster of Wado Ryu, Hironori Ohtsuka II, recently explained that Wado Ryu is primarily a Japanese Budo system. He told us that Wado was reregistered about twenty years ago as "Wado Ryu Jujutsu Kempo". The original Wado Ryu Founder had managed to tuck away 23 years of Koryu Jujutsu experience and Menkyo Kaiden in Shindo Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu before he met Gichin Funakoshi. It therefore seems obvious to me that the system he founded should be so heavily influenced by the Japanese Budo tradition. It is also apparent that he must have seen something in the Okinawan Karate that he experienced from the likes of Funakoshi, Mabuni and Motobu. But he did not sign up wholesale to Okinawan methodology. His interpretation of kata is heavily influenced by Jujutsu principles and also principles taken from Yagyu Ryu Kenjutsu as well as elements of Toda Ryu.

    And Bryan, this "block then strike stuff"... what have you been looking at? Sounds like base level fundamentals, certainly not the Wado I know. Parry(not block) and strike in one move is a more typical Wado approach, and "the stances are still too wide"... again, it sounds like something else other than Wado. Wado tends to be known for its more upright stances.

    As for reinventing the wheel - I was not aware that any system had a monopoly on the limitations of the human frame, because it seems obvious to me that martial artist past, present and future will no doubt come to many similar conclusions when exploring the various ways to resolve physical conflict.

    You also say, "Plus the emphasis on kumite and "advanced" positioning at Dan levels is ridiculous." Sorry, I don't understand that, could you explain?

    Tim Shaw

  15. #15
    Machimura Guest

    Default REALLY!!!

    Originally posted by n2shotokai
    Don’t hold your breath waiting for an answer. He will post derogatory disrespectful remarks and when cornered with the truth will ignore any requests for clarification, answers etc. See troll – flame and dash!

    Typical "if it ain't my style it ain't no good".

    Steve Beale
    I will try and be civil. Do you know me? Are sure that I'm a troll? I'm giving my perspective on Wado Ryu. These are just opinions and I'm not flaming anything! This is the problem I have with Japanese Karate for the most part--- it ain't karate. It's modified kickboxing with some forms. Don't be angry at someone because they don't agree with you. I'm not talking out of my arse, I'm talking from experience. But now "flame on"!!

    If you want to learn the lessons of karate then you have to study with someone who does Okinawan Karate. That's all. If you wanna learn GJJ study with a reputable BB. Studying with a Gracie or someone taught by a Gracie family member will give you one up. The Okinawans don't have a monopoly on karate; they had the copyright but the Japanese "doppleganged" it and diluted it. Read your tode history and learn WHY you even have an art called "karate" to study. You can't learn the bunkai of kata by analyzing Toudi Jutsu through the eyes of a JJJ practitoner. Tuite is similar, but it is not JJ. I have a feeling that Ohtsuka did what he did because Funakoshi sensed a fatal character flaw in him and didn't teach him everything. Anyway the "JJ" principles inherent in Ryukyuan Karate are from Chin Na and Jigen Ryu Kenjutsu. There's your JJ.

    Ohtsuka's (and many early pioneers - Okinawan and Japanese) were looking to gain the favor of their country and their Emperor. The Okinawans sneakily changed things, so as to make karate appear more structured and civlized. Heck, even Funakoshi was refused instruction in certain aspects of ShuriTe because his intentions were questionable. So Shotokai-kan guy, don't be angry that Funakoshi changed your art to a kid sport. Go and research and see what makes sense, and what is BS. Do what Nishiyama and Ohshima did. Don't take my word for it. Go find someone who teaches good Goju (ex. Higaonna Shinshii) and good Shorin Ryu. Learn what your art is supposed to really be. Then again people fight over more pressing concerns like "my God is better than your God", so reality is very subjective.

    The majority will never "get it". That's better for those of us who do. Knowledge reigns supreme.

    Giving "false" propers (like to Dillman for "revealing" Okinawan PP stuff) is common in the land of scheisters and connivers. Ohtsuka "made" a purely Japanese karate (that's why he changed the names and execution of the original kata <<sarcasm). He went back to the Shuri Te stances, but somehow reformulated karate in JJs image. He taught a lot of positioning and movement that were similar to the old Shuri way, and his use of block/strike vs. block then strike crap, was a novel idea. BTW, that is also a universal concept in many Okinawan Shorin styles. So what he really did was take out many of the Naha TE influences and made his "Shotokan" more like ShuriTe/Shorin.

    There are no advanced principles, just perfected basics. Teaching taisabaki (change-body as some Okinawans say) is not about time in grade, but proper technique from week one on. Beyond a certain level (1st kyu and above) kumite is detrimental to learning how to use karate in real life. The Okinawan way was like Shaolin, no BS sparring at all!

    Actually I'm not mad at anyone. I just wanted to reitierate some points that were on those web sites you posted. Talking about "my style is better than yours"-- just peep those sights. That Ohtsuka guy couldn't have been that naive. He knew that if he wanted to learn real karate he would need to go to Okinawa. He didn't, and it's obvious from his actions and words he was a bigot or xenophobe, at the least. I'm a bigot too--- against bigots! Why would he use the "original Chinese terms" for the kata over "the Okinawan ones"? That is what one of those sights said, right?

    Why are the Japanese stylists still insisting that what they do is the same as what the Okinawan styles teach? It isn't and karate is only Japanese because they conquered the Okinawans and now export it as their own. There aren't many types of real karate. There are 4-5 major (Okinawan) Ryu and the rest are pale shadows of a blurry image, hahaha! Many of you Japanese stylists are making Karate a caricature and a laughing stock! Well, there are quite a few Okinawan stylists doing the same thing! Until the Dai Nippon Butokai recognizes real karate styles, and lists them as such, I can't help but laugh at you oblivious people. the thing is many of your older Shotokan brothers will tell you what I'm telling you.

    Not all people are created equal (some are smart, some dumb, some disabled, others never even sick). Not all cars are Bentleys. All doctors are not surgeons. Not all styles were created equal. That's reality folks. Quit with the constipated karate, hahaha!
    J/K of course... Sorry Sochin (Ted), I tried!

    Bryan Cyr
    Last edited by Machimura; 13th March 2003 at 00:32.

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