Innovation

[Gene Williams]

Antonio, Yeah, I caught that bit about your freshly mowed backyard I guess you are going to give me Hell with that. My backyard is not freshly mowed, but has a nice sandy place to do kata in. If I get in the grass, I have two dogs and that can be a problem. I don't know if any of the kata have moves for avoiding do poop Gene

[Kimura]

Gene,

The difference between Traditional set katas that cannot be changed at all and the high school drills you talk about are like day and night in the sense that drills can always be changed or updated constantly,yearly,monthly or daily.

As soon as a coach figures out thru proven results that there is a better transfer of skills that can be incorporated into a training routine it is added and old is discarded,something that cannot be done with traditional karate katas.

Footbal,basketbal and baseball players along with boxers,wrestlers and almost all types of grapplers constantly are innovating new training drills that have proven effective thru results.

Dan gable one of the finest wrestling coaches we have had in this country is always "innovating" new drills and will adopt a new drill on the spot if proven to be effective.He is definitely not trying to emulate the same drill wrestlers did 100 years ago.


Hector Gomez

[Victor]

But the traditional kata sets have always changed for the reasons you mention.

The long tradition of Okinawan kata is instructors changed their kata as time passed within their instruction. And at times they taught their students different variations of those kata.

If you observe any of the major Okinawan systems there is variance from instructor to instructor, sometimes slight, sometimes major.

There isn't really a 'traditional' fixed pattern, except as what an occasional book shows, and very, very few instructors teach from a book.

In my study I was taught variant forms of the kata from the beginning, and with study you understand the differing applications that focused the change on those kata.

One of my instructors, now deceased, spent 40 years working on the application potential of the 8 Isshinryu kata. He began in Okinawa alongside my instructor as a beginner.

Well I've pulled together my notes from the clinics where I was able to spend time with him the last 8 or so years, and with only the partial knowledge I have of his studies, I have 800 applications docuemtned of those 8 kata, covering every sort of attack there is.

And no, you don't have to do that many for good self defense. But if you want to explore in depth what a system can do, it is interesting.

Now it's kind of hard to believe that there isn't a wealth of value in kata if you've experienced this.

And going back over the last 100 years, each of those instructors who changed their kata as their personal experience grew, had as many valid reasons for differing situations.

Victor Smith
Bushi No Te Isshinryu

[Gene Williams]

Victor, I agree. I find it remarkable that even with the innovations in applications and the variations from ryu to ryu in how the same kata are done, the kata still have remained remarkably the same in appearance and spirit.
Hector, I don't disagree. We are always changing applications, but we do not change the kata. I know that drives you nuts Hey, you just ain't a kata guy, and there is nothing wrong with that. Kata is a way to train, not the only way. Gene

[Tim Shaw]

On another discussion forum there came up this thing about is it okay to invent your own kata? My reply then was, sure it is! I invent a new kata every month, then almost straight away forget it. Only thing is I don't call them katas, I tend to refer to them as Renzoku Waza. Their embusen is a little predictable, i.e. mainly straight line. These are just combination drills aimed at concentrating training on a particular skill. But I would never include these combinations/kata in amongst the core, established canon of Wado kata, they hold a very special place.

It interested me to read of your applications for the X blocks in the Pinan katas. In Wado I have never heard of any of the established Japanese Senseis interpreting the move that way. They tend to say that within our interpretations of kata there is no place for a block that involves both hands, but instead the movement is interpreted as two seperate deflection wedges applied with twisting the body off line. There is no mention of a cross collar strangulation/choke, which is surprising because this Wado is primarily Jujutsu and the X collar strategy is used in some of the pairs work, but they obviously find no use for that modus operandi within the kata. Not saying it's wrong, just highlights a different way of using kata.

Must say at this stage how open-minded I have found this forum so far (very refreshing) Nice not to have to battle it out over semantics. Don't know if I'm pleased or disappointed that nobody seems to disagree with what I've said so far - a triumph for civility?

Hector, have we met in a service station somewhere? Can never tell in your posts if you're referring to me or someone else For example:

"Does this innovation thread pertain only to the kata innovation dilema?or is going outside of that squared(kata)box an option on this thread?if it is not an otpion,I will just step aside."

Was it me that prompted you to say this?


Tim Shaw

[Gene Williams]

Hi Tim, I trained in Wado for three years after I was already an ikkyu in Shorin-ryu. I was lucky enough to be in Nashville when Otsuka visited. I understand the differences you are talking about, although I was not exposed to them that far along in my training. About the x blocks in the Pinan, that is just one wa we do it in Shito-ryu. Remember before the x block there are three supported middle blocks (which we interpret sometimes as escapes from wrist grabs, and sometimes as block/punch). Try it like this: block a punch as you slide inside, use he x block as a strike to the lower jaw with the edges of your hands, drop your hands down to grab the lapels while you simultaneously knee groin and sweep the outside leg with the same foot you did the knee with. You will fall right on top of the opponent with your choke already done. If you practice this, he will be about choked out when he hits. If you grab thumbs inside, you an either spread your elbows to choke, or twist your knuckles into the carotid sinus; thumbs outside, the standard cross lapel choke. The x block in Pinan Godan has fingers pointing up, which we interpret as strictly a block followed by a kote mawashi/arm bar or niho nage if you want to interpret it as a throw after the block. I make up new drills for my students all the time. I never change a kata. Yes, this forum has been very civil, but I don't think any of us, so far, has anything to prove or an ax to grind. Hector and I are probably about as different as two people can be in our views of the martial arts, but, hey, he is a serious martial artist, too. Serious martial artists should be taken seriously...even in their freshly mowed backyards Antonio. Gene

[Goju Man]

Very interesting. I read a very interesting article where the author was interviewing Yukiyoshi Takamura about how he came to re organize his curriculum of Shindo Yoshin Ryu. He says: "When I came to America I discovered many traditional techniques were simply not applicable to the realities facing my new students. When I first started teaching, students began to ask me how I would deal with a boxer, or with a karateka and so on. At first, I was not sure I had the answers. I had to fully examine this. I realized that the answers were right in front of me. I was busy focusing on jujutsu techniques when it was jujutsu concepts that were the solution. New techniques could be devised to address the realities while embracing the time honored concepts." Wrestlers, bjj, judo, boxers, etc., all do this. The concepts of their sport or art is there, but they are constantly evolving the techniques. You won't see any of them trying to do things like their older counterparts did. Kata to me is a book which many instructors "hid" their techniques from outsiders. When these techniques and "concepts" are known, I believe time is better spent working the concepts and drills more than the actual form. But hey, to each his own. That is why we are individuals. I like the kata for the workout.

[Gene Williams]

That's right, Manny and I think it is concepts that are hidden in the kata even more than technique. Some ryu's "secret" applications are other ryu's standard teaching and vice versa. I think every kata has a "feel" to it that changes as you progress and the longer you are in karate. After I do Gojushiho a few times, I feel relaxed and kind of mellowed out. I do Seisan and I want to find somebody to do some contact work with or teach a really mean class. My students love me for it Gene

[shisochin#1]

yes we do

[Bustillo, A.]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
Antonio, Yeah, I caught that bit about your freshly mowed backyard I guess you are going to give me Hell with that. Gene

Gene,

No harm intended. Just a friendly joke.
Credit to you, it is refreshing to find someone elase with a sense of humor.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
...Some ryu's "secret" applications are other ryu's standard teaching and vice versa. ... Gene

In my limited exposure to Japanese Budo I can testify to the truth of that statement. What may be classified as Okuden in one school may be Shoden or Chuden waza in another school. But that is Japanese Budo. The Okinawians have never struck me as ever being that organized or structured in their teaching syllabi. I have been taught things in Goju and told 'do not give this away'. But, I have never seen a catorgized list of this is secret or this is showable.

[CEB]

Originally posted by Gene Williams
That's right, Manny and I think it is concepts that are hidden in the kata even more than technique. ... Gene

Sorry I don't intend to be picking on you Gene. We are actully very close in thought on many things. Since we have more common ground I can get more into the things you say. I hope you know what I am trying to say with that. I think the kata are mostly about techniques. I mean there are concepts attached to particular forms like Saifa which teaches particular tai sabaki and ashi sabaki that we find only in Saifa and that is probably the primary concept. But if overiding major concept of the form was our prime concern why not just do sabaki drills? I believe a lot was lost at one time and just a few schools may have been successful at retaining the meaning of the forms. I think that schools that spring from Higa Seiko's line have tended to be among the most successful at retaining the nature of the Goju Ryu. I am perhaps being too presumptive. It is a sin of my youthfulness perhaps.

Here is an issue I think really up clouds up the study of traditional karate. There are techniques in the system that are not performed in actuality the way they are done in the forms. I am talking about the commonly taught techniques across the style and not the home grown made-up variety of oyo thingies the practicitioners come up on their own.

Example from kata Seipai. There is a kensetsu waza in the beginning, It is the technique where your hands are clasped then you drop you weight into Shiko dachi then you bringup your right elbow until right forearm is parallel to the floor and the left forearm pretty much runs straight up and down (hope this makes sense). That is he way the 'kata' is done by 3 good Goju teachers from different organization that I am fortunate to be accepted by as a student ( 2 as a welcome guest and 1 is my 'formal' teacher). In order for the technique to work the right elbow needs to rise higher, higher than your own shoulder and not be parallel to the floor. Chinen Sensei in fact teaches it this way in the kata. I tend to run my solo kata in a way that the techniques need to be performed in order to work. Well this got me some negetive attention last summer when I was with Yamakura Sensei in Tulsa. He said no Ed make a nice performance the bunkai is still there but we don't show it. This is just one simple example but I think it is a common issue feeding the problem that guys like Manny have with traditional kata. I've heard 2 reasons for this occurring in our kata. 1) The kata was changed to make a pretty permforamce for aesthic reasons. 2) The kata are changed this way in order to purposely hide the technique. I hope it is reason #2 but I don't really know, I not an old timer like Gene and John. IMO It makes it more necessary to have a good teacher to actually learn the techniques of the style, but I think I would prefer it if the techniques were done as close to the required applied methods.

Here is I questioned I asked here a year or two ago I got all negetive responses. Now we have a new crop of posters and I would like to see if I get any different replies. My teacher taught me kata incrementally. I mean first I learned the basic version which was kind of stripped down. Then as time went along techniques were added. Nobody when I asked before said they learn under that methodology, everybody said they learned the whole thing up front. Example in our kata Sesan when you face the rear and turn to the right. I first learned you simply turn to the right and punch. Then gradually things were added til when I was done I had a snake like movement with the left hand followed by right ippon-ken which is very hard for me to described which may also be the reason it was taught to me later. Sanseiru, Seipai and Suparunpei have also been taught to me in this manner moving from simpler to more complex. Perhaps this is an innovation in my teacher's teaching methodology or I am just a special needs student.

Have a good week everyone take care. Thanks for letting me talk here.

[Machimura]

Everyone has their own way of teaching. I have heard of learning the kata incrementally, but you would do 4 movements, then repeat, then add the next 4 when the last sequence was memorized. So on until you finished the form in that session. As for teaching the true movements vs. a basic version. I dunno. You should let the mind become accustomed to what its really suppose to do. Not the other way around. I am no expert or oldtimer, but you learn to shoot a jumpshot correctly by doing it the right way from square one. Just an opinion.

That segment of Seisan is suppose to teach Taisabake right? At least in Matsumura Seisan that is. Ed, doesn't your son do Matsumura Seito? Why not Goju with his pops? Why doesn't pops do Matsumura Seito as opposed to Goju? Does Shorin seem like a kids art or something? I was just wondering, and I may have you mixed up with someone else. I taught last summer with a Higaonna Goju guy who was good. I didn't see that much difference in the way he did things as opposed to me. His kata and kumite were very good, and his kihon was too. With the exception of some Meibukan guy I saw on TV and a class that was taught in the PI (I forget what Org. it was), Goju seems really awesome.

Kata is the template, the "jump off"!

Bryan Cyr

[Gene Williams]

Ed, Thanks for a really good post. I do Seipei as you do it...show the technique...if you don't do it in the kata, you won't do it in the street. That being said, no fight ever looked like a kata. Go figure. I think Shotokan has been the most guilty of prettying up the kata (for instance, in empi uchi, squaring the elbows in front of the body instead of bringing them all the way forward and turning the hip as you would if someone's head was there), but I know a lot of very practical minded JKA folks. Shito-ryu tends to do the kata with more realistic actions, at least Motobu-ha. As for learning incrementally, I was never taught that way. We learned the kata as it was supposed to be done, then took years to be shown all the bunkai. Now, with time (like years) doing the kata, your performance will change. Stances a bit less rigid, smaller movements, less tension (which alone changes alot), sliding some in stances,more subtlety. I think the incremental bit is Sensei specific rather than ryu specific. As for Goju, Morio Higaonna is the only Goju senior I have spent time with and I feel that his kata and applications are pretty close. He credits kata with all his abilities, which in my estimation are considerable. Gene

[CEB]

Originally posted by Machimura
...

Ed, doesn't your son do Matsumura Seito? Why not Goju with his pops? Why doesn't pops do Matsumura Seito as opposed to Goju? Does Shorin seem like a kids art or something? I was just wondering, and I may have you mixed up with someone else.

Bryan Cyr

No, he does Seito. I used to train with the Seito folks. My college roommate that I shared an apartment with for three years is a student of Phil Koeppel. That is how got familiar with Seito. I've met your teacher a few times through Mr. Koeppel. Mr. Lindsay is a very strong karate-ka man. I hope he is doing well. I can mimick most of the Seito forms but I in no way consider myself a Seito practitioner.

I had my boy in our Goju dojo but I didn't think it was working out well. I rode him too hard. He liked karate but not the old man's constant criticism. I can teach him Judo and we have a great time. But karate seems a lot more tedious and I was always on him pretty hard about correcting the little details that would slide by as being acceptable for beginners. Lucky Phillips is my neighbor and he teaches Seito at a dojo he has behind his house. He is a good teacher and a good man and him and my boy have a good student teacher relationship. My wife or I can just drop him off there and get out of Dodge and let the boy train in peace away from the old man. He still had an interest in karate so it seemed to be the best solution for me. In fact I need to leave and pick him up soon.

Take Care