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Thread: always training for uncertain times in USA

  1. #16
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    It's not for me to say what belongs in ninpo teaching and what doesn't, and I don't really think that Ralph is saying that what he's teaching is or isn't a part of ninpo, just that he made it available.

    However, if her offering ikebana or cha no yu or calligraphy or some other aspect of Japanese cuiltuire you wouldn't have any objection to that, any more than you might to his teaching how to hollow out an egg to fill it with metsubushi. Yet some of you might get a little puzzled at his teaching how to use pepper spray, even though it's something a woman in the Dallas metro area might need.

    As for myself, I WAS a Boy Scout- and we shot rifles and shotguns.
    I live in a wooded area where our primary threats are forest fires and the place where I work. We not only have a bug-out bag, but at home we have a generator, a hand pump for the well, and ample supplies.It's just common sense, and a good service on Ralph's part, in terms of educating a mind-set.
    Aaron J. Cuffee


    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
    - H.L. Mencken

  2. #17
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    Default A few thoughts.

    First, I look forward to hearing what Ralph has to say, otherwise we just end up speculating on what he may or may not be actually teaching. That doesn't help anyone.

    From what I understand of these arts, it sounds has if Sensei Hatsumi (Is that a proper way to refer to him? I don't practice Takamatsuden arts) values adaptablity, flexibility, and being able to see how one can adapt the principles of his arts to the contemporary environment in order to deal with real and present threats. Certainly, it sounds as if the historical ninja had good reason to be able to "get out of Dodge" at a moment's notice, and I shouldn't be surprised if the idea of having a handful of tools and materials available at a moment's notice would have been a very pragmatic consideration. While I personally hope that I don't need to contend with issues like "dirty bombs" or biowarfare, I do live in New England, where hurricanes are a real and present danger. On many occasions, people have been evacuated from costal areas at a moment's notice. If something serious were to happen that required a whole town or even part of a city to evacuate without warning, I can only imagine the chaos that might ensue. to be able to adapt to that disruption seems a commonsensical precaution. The emergency responders are going to be dealing with communications breakdown, lost children, elderly individuals who can't move under their own power, injuries, and possible looting. This happens even in times of natural disasters. The more needs one can meet of one's own during those first 24-48 hours, the more that essential personnel can be freed up to help those in real predicaments of harm. moreover, preparation might even enable one to assist in the event of such a crisis. Isn't that a goal that a budoka could take seriously?

    As for the idea of it diverting from essential training in other aspects of the art, I think that some questions might be how much time is devoted to this, and whether this is something that the students also feel is relevant. Mr. Severe's students trust him and seem to believe that he has their best interests at heart. That's likely what keeps them coming back to his dojo. Should they, for whatever reason, decide that he is not meeting their needs and rather is choosing to focus on his own agenda to the detriment of the core Bujinkan art, I have no doubt that they are free to vote with their feet and find other venues in which to train in the arts they find most relevant to their lives.

    In the meantime, hopefully Mr. Severe can clarify his introductory post in order to give us more specific information to work from.
    Krzysztof M. Mathews
    http://www.firstgearterritories.com

    Every place around the world it seemed the same
    Can't hear the rhythm for the drums
    Everybody wants to look the other way
    When something wicked this way comes

    "Jeremiah Blues, Part 1"
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  3. #18
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    ralf,
    right the f### on, its good to keep your students minds turning and not staying in the dojo. to me teaching what to keep in the bug out bag is the same as teaching how to survive in a riot condition. its one of those things that you might never use. but its sure cool to know if ya need it.
    i've used items out of my bug out bag alot. the duct tape and extra cloths especially. other things like first aid kits should be manditory to have in your car or truck(especially if you have kids).
    Clayton Lawrence

  4. #19
    shikoyama Guest

    Default Re: You're not serious!!!!????!!!!

    Originally posted by Neil Richardson
    Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha... pauses to catch breath... hahahahahahahahahahhahahah

    Oh, you kill me man


    Shaking head in disbelief,
    Neil.


    Sure it's funny, until you find yourself needing to go fast, and frantically running around trying to figure out what you should have and all that. For me, the whole purpose of ninjutsu training is to practice for a situation that I hope never happens (like a fight for my life). This kind of survival planning totally fits with that.

  5. #20
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    Default always

    OK OK, I'll ask the obvious question... if you've got a BOB (Bug Out Bag), have you got a destination in mind? I hope so, otherwise you simply become a refugee. Neil Richardson

    ***Kamiyama, ok.. I guess this would be true if you were not prepared. Thus this class is very important.
    On the subject of where or if you need to go or run to is not part of the post or is in question. No one said anyone went or ran anywhere. A bugout bag gives you the survivability for 72 hours or more in a crisis (fire, flood, electrical power shut off, tornado, hurricane, etc). As a warrior I have to take the responsibility to care for myself and for the ones who rely on me. Not to take on this responsibility is unbecoming and not part of warriorship.***

    I could talk about survival and preparedness, and I do have an interest in such, but that has nothing at all to do with Japanese martial arts (this is starting to look like the firearms thread). Neil Richardson

    ***kamiyama, on the contrary. I have books by Hatsumi sensei and have read others on the subject that would suggest that it is. I feel in my opinion that Hatsumi sensei teaches us to be ready for what might occur in our lives that might bring us unhappiness. Looking into the training of Japanese warrior over the course of Japan’s history you will find that they were schooled in many different methods of survival. If you cannot see this in your study then maybe you are not willing to take on the responsibility or just would not like to address this because it would take your training elsewhere from kobujutsu to kobudo. ***


    Being prepared for emergencies has nothing to do with the martial arts? Phil Elmore

    ***kamiyama, being a be fan of mine is not important. But from time to time you allow yourself the pleaser to look at the truth Phil. LOL. Yes, it is totally martial arts. ***

    No, it has nothing to do with martial arts per se. Neil Richardson

    ***kamiyama, are you saying that it is or it is not?***

    Would you expect to learn about survival and firearms in an Aikido or Karate class? No? Then why is it ok in the x-kans in your mind? Neil Richardson

    ***kamiyama, I would expect you to have a better disagreement. Everyone who has experienced Aikido or karate knows it is not an art of combative means to an end as ninjutsu is. It would be foolish to compare them. Don’t you agree? I do fee they teach survival skills. But not in the manner which Hatsumi sensei has laid out for us to follow and research. ***

    Well, the BSA (American Scouting organisation) has the 'Be Prepared' philosophy, but that doesn't mean they are all taught firearms and each carry a bugout bag around with them, just in case there's any civil unrest.

    ***kamiyama, The BsoA do train firearms. I did when I was in there as well as they do today. No one has said you carry a bugout bag with you everywhere you go. But yes, everyone should have a small one in his or her auto. And maybe carry a few tools with you on your person. Civil unrest is only part of the picture. In that case you really take what you want from whom ever you wish. A bugout bag is for personal responsibility.***

    i am at a lose here to see what this has to do with Ninjutsu. i dont think it has a single thing to do with it at all. i can understand if you lived in some parts of the world why you may wish to undertake such readiness, but why discuss it in a martial arts board and try to claim it is Ninjutsu is way off the track. ralph I think you need to be asking these question on some survivalist forum not an MA forum. I have seen plenty of shows on TV in the UK and USA where they have these wackos who live in the cities and wilderness preparing for some sort of disaster.
    the average american will in there life time never encounter such a disaster. Apart from a few eartquake sin California you have only had 3 other serious malicious disasters. Pearl Harbour Oklahoma Twin Towers. Just what are you preparing for. Your all paranoid about nothing. Steve Jones

    ***kamiyama, I disagree with you and have been training these skills right along with my kickboxing and wrestling as well as ninjutsu. I see these skills as ninpo. The higher level of understanding of ninjutsu. Maybe you do not. That is your choice. As for having this on a ninpo forum I would say it is totally the ‘right’ thing to do. If I didn’t feel it was I wouldn’t have posted it. The reason to post it so people like yourself might have an open mind and would like to know more about true ninjutsu and not just dojo kata and randori in a peaceful and controlled environment. Do you not have this interest? If not maybe Ninjutsu and ninpo are not what you should be looking into as a training method as a living skill.
    If I were on the coast and it became poor weather then a hurricane I would feel foolish not to be ready for such a crisis. Wouldn’t you? What if you had your mother or father or even a loved one with you and you were left out in the weather without any skills or equipment to help yourself or even them?
    What if you lived in the hills, mountains and there was a fire and you had to run out and get to safety? The forest around you was burning and you’re up a creek without a paddle.?
    Why not have a gas mask and food, etc to make it out alive?
    What if you drove up on a auto wreck on the street and no one was around to help. But you have felt your need for skills out side kata and randori were foolish? What then? Do you have such a bag in your car or the skills to help?
    And more importantly what if it was someone you know or one of your family?
    I could go on with examples.
    Ninja are to be students of being able to out last and to win.***

    It's not for me to say what belongs in ninpo teaching and what doesn't, and I don't really think that Ralph is saying that what he's teaching is or isn't a part of ninpo, just that he made it available. Aaron J. Cuffee

    ***kamiyama, you are correct.. I didn’t say it was part of anything but human nature to survive….... it is part of ninpo. ***

    ***kamiyama, I feel there is a big difference between living in Dallas Texas than living say anywhere in the UK.
    First we have different laws and different ways of dealing with conflicts.
    On firearms along..I can carry a shotgun or rifle anywhere I wish in public as long as I do not scare anyone.
    I can travel 100's of miles north and south and almost never egt to a place where I have to turn around.. and east to west far enough that I would like to turn around.
    Big area.
    People on a island can be controlled and placed where the big picture wants them to be placed.
    Here we can move around without any walls mentally.
    We have different rights and needs because of those rights.
    We have a coast line that is very violent and has many differnt weather conditions to keep us busy.
    We have earth quakes.
    We have forest that burn wildly.
    We have tornados... well. you get the opoint..right?
    Now back to civil unrest.
    We don't have to much of this here.
    But if so our laws have been such that we just shoot them here in Texas and ask questions later..LOL..
    Bugout bags are not for civil unrest.. but that's a good ideal too..
    Bugout bags are for the safety of the family and friends.
    Health and safety is a major issue of mind and the people I know.
    Maybe not with many of you.
    But ninpo is the life style I've chosen to live as a warrior. Not a NHB or boxer or even a kickboxer.

    Maybe this might interest you..


    Kamiyama dojo, special class, bug-out bag
    What kamiyama feels is needed for his bug-out bag,

    First aid kit
    IV with 2 bags, starter kit
    Cooking kit, Tommy cooker with fuel
    Cooking kit, coffee can with 2 buddy burners
    Fire starter kit
    2 lighters
    Stainless steel bowel
    Poncho
    Trash bags, large and small
    Wax
    Socks
    Shorts
    Pants with belt
    Jacket
    Cover-hat
    Camo paint
    Fleece top
    Wool gloves
    Neck warmer, wool
    Leatherwork gloves
    Pen
    FN FAL rifle
    .45 auto pistol
    Markarov pistol
    Waterproof paper pad
    Wire
    Razor blades
    Sleep cover-hat
    Camo veil
    Snap lights
    Electrical tape
    2 hand towels
    Toothpaste
    Toothbrush
    Q-tips
    Sponge
    Small AAA flash light
    Fork
    Knife
    Utility small knife
    Large fighting knife
    Fleece pants
    Wool blanket
    Survival blanket
    MRE mixed, main meals, 4
    Coffee
    Tea
    Hot Coco
    550 cord, 4 - 20’ bundles
    Butt pack
    Carry harness or LBV-LBE
    Small binoculars
    Compass
    12 gauge shotgun shells, 25
    Gas mask, one extra filter
    Headlamp
    Iodine water purify
    Water PUR H2O filter
    MRS water bag
    Rubber bands
    Survival cards
    Tent
    Tarp
    Gun cleaning kit
    Side shoulder sack
    8 Rifle magazines with loaded ammo .308
    Loaded bandoleer with stripper guide, 120 rounds .308
    Pistol magazines with loaded ammo, .45
    Extra ammo, 50 rounds .45
    Night vision
    9 MM ammo
    Nylon strapping
    D-ring, carabineer
    Swiss seat, sling rope
    Earplugs
    State maps, Texas, Louisianan, Okalahoma
    Extra bootlaces
    String
    Tie straps
    Aluminum foil
    Toilet paper
    Sharpening stone
    Machete
    Spice kit, sugar
    T-shirt
    Canteen cup
    Plastic cup with lid
    2 candles
    Pills for medical conditions
    Extra batteries
    Pepper spray
    Bungee
    38 ammo
    22 ammo
    green duct tape
    thermometer
    sunglasses
    hand-cuff keys
    gum, mints
    money
    shaving kit
    small tool set
    vitamins
    bug dope
    whistle
    bolt cutters
    flares

    What else?

    One more thing.. we are all different but going to the same place in the end.

    kamiyama, ralph severe
    Last edited by Kamiyama; 27th March 2003 at 23:42.
    Dallas Ninjutsu Academy
    www.artofcombat.com
    The best Japanese and Mexican Bugei in Dallas !

  6. #21
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    Smile Class time or workshops

    While I agree that it might not be best to have that type of training during regular classes but it is great info for a 1 day workshop. When I worked for a mutual fund company we had a Office saftey team that was trained in 1st aid, triage, search and rescue and society set-up. This was taught by a former paramedic and her husband a former firefighter. Incase of earthquake or bomb. He had one senior member take off time and volunteer for one of the earthquake relief teams in South America. Some day I would like to have them come in and teach a workshop. I think it goes with Soke's "Wanting his students to be points of bright light in our community. So if there are any disasters, we can help out.

  7. #22
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    Default WOW!

    Nice bug-out bag, Ralph; that more than covers it.
    But I think I'd prefer to have my "sportsterized" M1- less heavy and far less attention getting than an FN FL.
    Aaron J. Cuffee


    As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.
    - H.L. Mencken

  8. #23
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    The skills Mr. Ralph teaches in the special classes like the bug out bag class you saw a picture of, are from my understanding part of the juhachimon. Mr. Ralph uses these special classes to educate us on, navigation (chimon), meterology (tenmon), first-aid, water purifying etc.

    I don't even think it is a question of "are survival skills part of martial arts?" I don't study these skills because I do martial arts, think I am a ninja, whatever I think everyone should have basic provisions and knowledge to take care of themselves and their loved ones should you need to. Martial arts or not, Ninjutsu or not, we all need to take care of ourselves no matter how you want to categorize it.

    Neil Stewart

  9. #24
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    Wow, I'm shocked at the inconsideration of the replies from some of the members from the UK?! Kotaro writes, "Only in America"? What's that supposed to mean? Only in America should people be prepared for natural disasters? The UK doesn't ever experience anything where you might need to evacuate your home for a period of time? Never loose water? Electricity?

    Isn't ninjutsu/ninpo the art of perseverance, among other things. Isn't perseverence being prepared for situations that might arise? What I like about ninjutsu/ninpo is that its not just martial techniques practiced in a training facility, but it has practical life skills that can be applied across many aspects of one's life. I think this is one of them.

    Really disappointed at the closed minds on this list.
    Jeff Jackson

  10. #25
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    Wow, I'm shocked at the inconsideration of the replies from some of the members from the UK?!
    I wasn't going to reply to this thread again after my last post, but since the above has been stated I just wanted to clarify something.

    Nobody in this thread has said that its bad to have some sort of preparations. I've had a BOB in the car for years. What we in the UK are complaining about is that these things should not be done in the dojo. There is a time and place for everything and time in the dojo is so limited that it should be spent training.

    Please don't misunderstand the posts from the UK. We are NOT saying that you shouldn't have a BOB or any other sort of preparations (firearms or whatever). We ARE saying, however, that it shouldn't be discussed in the dojo.

    I'd suggest that you reread the above carefully before replying with another rant.

    Neil.

  11. #26

    Default

    Originally posted by caleqs
    What I like about ninjutsu/ninpo is that its not just martial techniques practiced in a training facility, but it has practical life skills that can be applied across many aspects of one's life.
    Whatever floats your boat.

    I do find it hard to understand why anyone would need to learn their 'life skills' from a Martial Arts school, when there are probably far more suitable places to acquire that knowledge. To me it's like learning to type in a cookery class. But then I'll admit I don't get the whole 'ninpo' thing anyway (at least the non-combat aspects of it).

    Not a slam, just a radically different mindset.

    Cheers,

    Mike

  12. #27
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    Neil wrote:
    We ARE saying, however, that it shouldn't be discussed in the dojo.
    Why?, if the individual has the relevent skill and has students who wish to learn it why not discuss it as part of a lesson.

    The perceptions of what we study are coloured by the people we train with. It's then upto the student to take what they need from their training.

    If individuals want this training and it can be made available then I personally see no issue with it. Where the issue arises is when people who are not correctly trained try to pass on duff information as being correct.

    The question may well come down to this, (controvesial mode engaging), do we study Ninjutsu? or Bujinkan?, or a combination? are these mutually exclusive?

    many of us who have been around a while, were origionally taught, Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, or at least that was what it was described as. What we see now is nothing like it was in the early 80's, it is no better or worse. This system has developed as it has aged, people go to training for a variety of reasons if learning about this element is what drives them I see no issue with it. End Rant
    Dave Pawson
    Shidoshi
    Bujinkan Kokoro Dojo

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    When I first started in the early 80's every month we had an academic class. Each member of the dojo picked a topic and gave a class on that topic. Topics included shotgun, pistol, sword making, attacking the spine,(by a chiropractor).
    As for the BOB, I would include all prescription meds.we need for a month, a brush knife or machete and my 1022 for small game. I also have some card games for the kids to play.

    Mark Harper
    Bujinkan Houston Dojo

  14. #29
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    Default Another perspective from the UK...

    I am not going to offer an opinion on what subjects should or shouldn't be taught in the dojo but I would like to offer this:

    When you (a general 'you', not addressed at anybody in particular) study ninjutsu (or whatever you want to call it) are you studying a traditional MA in a historical context or are you studying a living art which has as much relevance now as it had at any time in its history?

    For me the reasons for study come on a number of levels:

    1) I study for the sake of studying.
    2) I study to learn something with a traditional context for the sake of having a connection with the past.
    3) I study to learn something that will hopefully help me protect myself if I ever have to defend myself against an attack in the street.
    4) I study to develop my person and spirit.
    5) And last of all I study a method for survival in any situation.

    Now you people out there will study for some/none/all/other of these reason (delete as applicable) and there is nothing wrong with any of them. But this does not give anyone the right to say 'This should/should not be studied in someone else's dojo'. My understanding of the word 'dojo' is that it can be translated as 'place of learning'. In this context everything should/can be studied in the dojo. What you choose to study is your and your student's choice.

    My personal view is that too much of the training I do in the dojo is simply that, in the dojo. Throws are practised in the dojo, the clothes we train in are not worn outside of the dojo, etc. etc. Ninjutsu is huge and a lifetime of study will not give you all the answers so choosing to concentrate on the Kihon Happo may perfect your technique (of the Kihon Happo) but you will be totally unskilled in the many other aspects of this complex art. I grew up reading every book I could on Ninjutsu, including the SK Hayes ones, and one thing I noted was that training often happened outdoors - not in the dojo. How many of you have trained outdoors recently? In the dark? On a golf course where you shouldn't be in the first place?

    Whether what Ralph teaches is strictly 'Ninjutsu' I cannot judge but I cannot say that it is 'not Ninjutsu'. Ninjutus is far more than what is taught in the dojo; in fact isn't all life a dojo to the ninja?

    Just my thoughts, no offence meant to anybody.

    Hugh Wallace
    Hugh Wallace

    A humble wiseman once said, "Those who learn by the inch and talk by the yard should be kicked by the foot."

  15. #30
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    Default always

    I hope this is not a post where good friends..UK VS USA type deal..

    I only felt in my opinion that this was a very good subject to poast because it is part of the juhachimon of Togakure ryuha ninpo taijutsu and of the crazy times we are living in.

    Maybe the post should be looked into.
    Ask questions about the BUGOUT BAG contents and the reason they are in there or why other things are not in there.

    Maybe why I feel the need to teach this to students.

    Many different learning questions can be addressed here.

    Why does a post turn into a fight?
    When in fact I put it here to learn from?
    This is so unbecoming of you guys in the Bujinkan.
    And you guys with a shodan and above .. well.. you should put forth a effort in my opinion to help and promote the bettering of people not put down the progression of others.


    One reason I teach these things in my 'kamiyama dojo' is that we are family here trying to understand the needs of our lives.
    This is NINPO...
    Regardless of your personal feelings it has to be addressed.
    Families need to work towards growth Neil Richardson.
    Don't you agree?

    I respect your point of view a great deal.
    You and your brother have a wonderful outlook into the bujutsu-budo we study.

    This was sent to me about the post,

    For Kotaro:

    "i am at a lose here to see what this has to do with Ninjutsu."
    What does survivalism and preparedness have to do with Ninjutsu?
    pretty much everything. What do you think ninjutsu is really about? It is survival. Surviving a hostile world. Feudal Japan had a different technology than we do, but the problems were the same. To put it on a reasonably apolitical basis - the woods are full of villians and bandits, and sometimes the weather is bad, too. Occasionally, governments become hostile to the best interests of the people, and agents of those governments use their power to oppress the people. That was essentially the environment under which ninjutsu was founded, and sometimes it is the environment in which people find themselves today

    "I have seen plenty of shows on TV in the UK and USA where they have these wackos..."
    If you base your perception of reality on TV, you should get out more. Most of the people who produce, write and act in television shows are idiots, and are lucky if they stay out of jail for drugs, shoplifting, murder, or just plain criminal stupidity. They may be fun to watch, but you should never take them seriously.

    "the average american will in there life time never encounter such a disaster. Apart from a few eartquake sin California you have only had 3 other serious malicious disasters."
    You don't read the paper much, do you? OK, here is a short list: In the US, in my lifetime, we have had
    tornadoes, ice storms, hurricanes, floods, forest fires, riots, and chemical spills. All of these events have caused massive, if temporary, disruptions in infrastructure, injuries, and loss of life. In each of those disasters, the people who were prepared faired better than the ones who were not prepared. Those able to heat their homes and their food, while the electricity was off for several weeks during an ice storm, were much better off than the ones who froze, because the "authorities" were busy and were not able to help them. The shopkeepers in Los Angeles, who defended their stores -with guns- against mobs of looters did better than the unfortunate ones who could only run away and watch the smoke rise where their store used to be.


    "Just what are you preparing for."
    to paraphrase James Dean, What have ya got? I have personally had to deal with hurricanes, ice storms, floods, tornadoes and an attempted break in at my home.

    Oh, and for the fellow who said that Ralph's students should get on the mat and train - they do. Typically four to six days a week, for 2 or more hours. Some come into the dojo and put in extra time with the weights or on the bags. When I was training with Ralph, we trained in light and in the dark, in parks, in alleys, warehouses, in the woods, the dojo and other dojos. Ralph is one of a very few instructors who encourages, and even arranges for his students to cross train with other instructors and schools. Should you encounter them at the Tai Kai, ask to train with them, they will be glad to work with you, and you will gain understanding.

    I find this to be a differnt point of view.

    So many views..

    kamiyama, ralph severe
    Dallas Ninjutsu Academy
    www.artofcombat.com
    The best Japanese and Mexican Bugei in Dallas !

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