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Thread: Aiki Kogeki/ Emonodori

  1. #61
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 30th March 2014 at 01:12.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  2. #62
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    Given that the vast majority of the posters on this thread agree that techniques for separating a swordsman from his weapon are good for a quick trip to visit your ancestors, how does everyone feel about the time honored technique of Jotori?

    Neal Hinerman

    The 2 Secrets To Success

    1. Don't Tell Everything You Know.

  3. #63
    BDW Guest

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    I also am part of the Yudansha kobu jitsu karate doh federation with sensei smith. And sensei I completly agree with ma ai if your distance is to far your vunerable to thrusts with the katana,wakasashi,tachi,tanto and if your to close your open to knee strikes or other concealed weapons for disarming it can be very complicated because at the range you have to be for a de arm you are already to close for confort PLEASE KEEP IN MIND TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN THAT I AM ONLY A BROWN BELT AND MY KNOWLEDGE IS VERY VERY VERY VERY LIMITED

    domo arigato goziumusu

  4. #64
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    my god calm down it will do no one any good to be offensive, especially when you are a thousand miles away and cannot back up your mouth. i think it's a good idea to be as civilized as possible on the internet, uriah.

    First of all i meant no disrespect to nathan, i don't know him and have never seen him. my comment was a general one and did not include everyone. It has been said many times on this thread that most of the taijutsu people are outsiders and their lack of knowledge with a sword is the reason for them believing that these techniques would work. However, when i made the comment that the reason for sword people thinking they wouldn't work is because of their lack of knowledge concerning empty hand techniques everyone blew up. (you might say it's a case of calling the kettle black) So Ron, (a) is ridiculous but (b) isn't, why not?

    I personally think that this tread has been concluded. It is possible to disarm a swordsman, Sokaku takada and O-sensei are examples, however it is improbable that it would happen. Howard seemed to think that it would never happen and has never happened, my point was that it is possible and it has been done before.
    Sam Roberts

  5. #65
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Sam

    I think people are being calm. You are mistaking their answers for anger. I think you will find it is far more a dismissive attitude and not anger-which in my book is worse. Most would not even bother to reply to such statements as you make.
    While you acknowledge your lack of experience in the matter -you do not appreciate who you are talking to. Some here would find it amusing that you think we do not have an understanding of jujutsu and weapons. You are talking to people with decades of experience in both.
    Secondly, your opinions here will be judged on the information and words you type-as well as your attitude. While everyone is entitled to an opinion you may have to pardon us for dismissing yours due to the way you present. As an example I can say that in our brief exchange your arguments were ill-thought out and lacking accurate information. We don't know you and from out of the gate you are back peddling on statements of techniques you clearly do not know first hand, you challenged my experience and knowledge to correct your misinformed statements along with my corrections and then back peddled and agreed with me! You are arguing with people we know who "have the stuff" and have had the the stuff for years. Just now you are responding to people who clearly have a more in depth knowledge than you with words like like "can't back up your mouth." Statements like these are not condusive to communication-which is the currency here. Please argue your opinion and leave it at that. If you wish to communicate WITH and not rant AT people-you might consider just who and how many are telling you you're off base. Or you can be like many here-and just leave with the opinions you obviously came in with-and learn nothing in the exchange.
    As for backing things up? Well, I did more than that didn't I? I offered two grand for you to take a live blade out of my hands. While I do not entertain this type of nonsense often- I have had great success in setting certain martial artists "beliefs" in order in the past. You will find I am faaaar more rude than Ellis or Nathan. You are welcome any day.

    Nathan
    I haven't had time to respond. I have some thoughts on your reply and I'll get to it. This is yet another case in point on my arguments about the new internet expert though isn't it?
    I love the open debate forum though. It is always fun to see the equivelant of TKD teenage mall rats or erstwhile newbies (no Sam- not you) argue Japanese weapons with Ellis. A great commercial break from my work day. It would be fun to here Meik argue Naginata with a kid from New Jersey.

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 17th April 2003 at 14:27.

  6. #66
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    Wink

    Originally posted by Sam17
    I would love to challenge you, dan, at any price, to do ippondori against one of my boxing jabs. in fact you can have as many attempts as you want.
    Oh, Sam. I would be very careful of what I ask for, if I were you.

    BTW, I happen to be a highly skilled puncher -- boxing jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts -- I do it all, and have been punching (and studying the science of punching) for nearly 3 decades. I also happen to train with Dan. At his request, I punch at Dan with full power, fast and accurate punches that have made knockouts on opponents over the years.

    Wish I had a photograph of my arms the first time I trained with Dan, 5 years ago, and had asked him to show me how "his arts" dealt with punches. Wish I had a photo of the look on my face, too. Although I have the next best thing to photos -- the memories of Dan and my dojomates as they gleefully recount that day and what I looked like after my first encounter.



    You know, it's very easy for you to be a bigmouth on your side of the pond. Do you think that people like Dan and Nathan haven't had their fill of challengers and smarta$$es who don't have the wisdom to respect those with greater experience?

    Instead of insulting your seniors and betters, why not just be an earnest seeker. A little humility really doesn't hurt.
    Cady Goldfield

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    Originally posted by Sam17
    my god calm down it will do no one any good to be offensive, especially when you are a thousand miles away and cannot back up your mouth. i think it's a good idea to be as civilized as possible on the internet, uriah.

    No one seems to be excited or uncivil here...or offensive. If you took offense, I suggest you look to your own motivations. Take note, for instance, that you posted in all caps, known as "shouting" on the internet. People often consider ***that*** rude.

    snip...

    However, when i made the comment that the reason for sword people thinking they wouldn't work is because of their lack of knowledge concerning empty hand techniques everyone blew up. (you might say it's a case of calling the kettle black) So Ron, (a) is ridiculous but (b) isn't, why not?

    We simply called you on a ridiculous statement. (b) is not ridiculous, because it is a fact. The people here however (particularly Nathan and quite a few others, are exceptions to these rules. Your lack of familiarity suggests that you have not taken the time to familiarize yourself to a new environment...a weakness no martial artist should be guilty of.

    I personally think that this tread has been concluded. It is possible to disarm a swordsman, Sokaku takada and O-sensei are examples, however it is improbable that it would happen. Howard seemed to think that it would never happen and has never happened, my point was that it is possible and it has been done before.
    Are they? Has it? Can you provide references for where this has occured in a combat situation, as opposed to a demo situation?

    Ron Tisdale

  8. #68
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    "Sokaku used ippondori to pin the bandit on the left who had drawn his broadsword intending to kill him"
    there is more but i don't think i would be allowed to post it
    this is from an article on aikido journal (Sokaku Takada biography 8)
    Sam Roberts

  9. #69
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    Whew! Took awhile to read through all that.

    Anyway, just wanted to add a comment related to Earl's posts.

    As is pretty clear from Ippon dori, however unlikely or unrealistic against a real sword, nage must wait for the attacker to be committed to slicing him down before he can move in to take it away. Any attempt to move in before a committed attack is a 100% loser. During one day of training in Japan with Kondo sensei, he moved us back against a wall and pulled out a bokken to practice ippon dori. At least he probably found the practice humorous. We couldn't do anything. Then he pulls out one of those cheap aluminum blades, assures us it isn't sharp, and then makes another point by stabbing the point of the sword through a cabinet door or something (forgive me, here, for not remembering exactly what he stabbed. I just remember the stabbing and the congenial grin he was wearing).
    Well, the ippon dori practice was even worse than with the bokken.

    Then he pulls out a wooden tanto. I committed to the disarm and before I had even entered fully he "stabbed" the back of my hand. I guess that was just a love tap to show me it could have been my throat, or anywhere else he wanted.

    Anyway, I agree with Earl that if you absolutely have to disarm such an opponent, the only feasible way (aside from some kind of trickery: sand in the eyes, etc.), is to wait for the attacker to commit fully, and pray your timing is good enough.

    Also, as for jodan sword cuts. In the style I study, there are armored and unarmored versions. The older, armored versions do not have jodan cuts because with the heavy armor, and especially if one is wearing a helmet, you can't efficiently raise your arms over your head to perform such a cut. Instead, the cuts are done from hasso, jun, gyaku, etc., etc. The jodan cuts are only practiced in the unarmored versions - and the target areas change as well.

    Good thread everyone,
    Best regards,
    Arman Partamian

  10. #70
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 30th March 2014 at 01:13.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #71
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    Sorry about that nathan i didn't know whether i could post all of it as some at the end were just for members. i thought that was a good example, one person had a sword and the other didn't. the conditions weren't perfect for the man with the sword but why should they be. i love that story as well, mate f.in excellent

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaha i have found it by golly.
    "One summer night a group of men, whose master had been defeated by ittosai, attempted to assassinate him...ittosai...managed to take one of the assassins swords"
    (The Shambhala Guide to Kendo)

    I will start another thread regarding ippondori to a boxing punch only with Dan's permission

    cheers
    Sam Roberts

  12. #72
    Aiki-Kohai Guest

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    This is a very interesting topic, with alot of good information....though there seems to be an air of Aikido bashing...not saying it's intended...just that the mood is there.

    Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion..and I personally like different points of view...how else can one learn?

    I would like to say though that I personally know someone who had an encounter with an atacker who weilded a knife. He currently holds the rank of Godan in our style of Aikido. The person who attacked him with the knife wound up stabbing himself several times....once was in the eye.

    I will say that this individual was on drugs..and was not to my knowledge experienced in knife fighting....but there has to be some merrit to anyone who 1.) can even survive being attacked by someone weilding a weapon. and 2.) coming out unharmed.

    Not all Aikido is alike.....there are a few styles out their that known when to give up something that doesn't work. Teaching it for tradition sake can even be dangerous in my opinion...cause you mimic what you know. As for disarming a person with a weapon...not very likely. Hopefully you are aware enough to keep yourself out of possible situations like that...and if you do get into one....run away....and if you can't....don't just stand there. Move!!

    Not too insightfull...but I wanted to say something.


    Regards
    John

    PS. My prior comment was from a cursory overview of the topic....I retract my statement about Aikido bashing..to some extent...

    [combined two posts. NS]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 15th July 2003 at 21:46.

  13. #73
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    I am hopping on this thread kind of late, haven't had much time for the internet lately. I had an observation to offer, which by no means is meant to be contrary to the general consensus already reached-that tantodori and tachidori waza represent an extremely bad situation for nage to be in. I have studied FMA, JKD, and Karate prior to taking up Aikido, and agree wholeheartedly about the lack of realism prevalent in Uke's attacks in most Aikido practice. I can claim no great knowledge of Kenjutsu, but also agree that Tachidori as commonly practiced is a dismal situation for nage at best. My take on this is a bit different though. I teach firearms and defensive tactics for a major police department, and spend a respectable amount of time on retention and disarming of firearms. This time is not spent because an unarmed officer has any sort of realistic chance against even a semi-skilled shooter at any sort of distance, but because combat is fluid and unpredictable, and all kinds of interesting and improbable things can happen when multiple combatants come together at close range (also because people in hostage situations [yeah, cops can get taken hostage too] often point guns at you in ranges WAY too close for gunplay and give you orders rather than shoot you-but that's a different scenario). I envision tachidori as being something that occurs in a tsuba-zerai (spelling?) sort of clinch between two swordsmen, or when the swordsmans maai is all messed up for whatever reason when he engages you, perhaps because more than just two people are involved in the conflict or perhaps for environmental reasons. Just as I have no doubt that facing Ken Good from 20 feet and telling him I'll take his pistol away will get me shot (no doubt repeatedly in a nice tight shot group), I am sure that attempting tachidori against, say, Kuroda Sensei will get me eviscerated. However, I still train weapons disarms against both sidearm and long gun because in the chaos of CGC the necessity may arise. By the same rational, I think tachidori and tantodori have value as long as we realize that realistically speaking possible practical applications are extremely limited indeed.
    Sincerely,

    Matthew Little

    www.shinjinkai.org
    www.tacticalapplications.com

  14. #74
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    [Post deleted by user]
    Last edited by Nathan Scott; 30th March 2014 at 01:13.
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  15. #75
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    I’m not sure, but I think, maybe, that when people imagine these techniques being applied, or not as the case may be, they see it as a stand off between swordsman and unarmed man. However, I don’t think the techniques were intended for this type of situation, which you would have to stupid to get yourself into in the first place. Usually in this situation, a stand off, both opponents would have their swords, weapons. Generally the only times when an armed man would become unarmed is either in the palace or if his opponent(s) have come in close enough to take it or force it off of him, or if he is taken by surprise. In these instances, excluding the exception of palace, a skirmish will take place. In this type of circumstance it is easier to apply the techniques. Notice easier not easy. I think this is what they were intended for, the skirmish, not the stand off. In a stand off situation the unarmed man should be armed in the first place. In the palace only short sword were allowed to be worn, not by everyone, though, and it is, again not easy but, easier to disarm someone wielding a short sword, where they must act quick and will probably only have one chance at the attack.

    Cheers
    Sam Roberts

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