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Thread: Judo matwork and BJJ

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    Default Judo matwork and BJJ

    My guess is that this has been addressed before, but I was curious about the similarities and differences between Judo's matwork and BJJ. I have never studied BJJ so my comments are only coming from the Judo perspective. From what I have gathered, Judo seems very comparable to BJJ with the following exceptions: BJJ doesn't stress holds in the same manner as osaekomi waza (holds in BJJ emphasize a submission aspect rather than a timeclock aspect) and you are given more time to work for a technique in BJJ (judo referees call you to standing if no technique is evident within 5-10 seconds).

    The chokes and armbars seem very similar and you can find yourself in legs around bottom, legs around top, hands and knees bottom and hands and knees top in both arts. Am I getting the gist of it or are there are other key differences that I am missing?
    Cary Takagawa

  2. #2
    Kimura Guest

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    Hi cary,

    I think the Time factor in competion and training really dictates the strategy and overall object of what your trying to acomplish.

    In judo newaza everything needs to happen very quick,the transition from standing to ground is excellent along with getting osaekomi,control and submission usually happens quickly.

    In bjj you have all the time in the world to get position and gradually move into a submission so time is less of a factor.


    Real good guard work is developed thru having that time to work on all those subtle differences that make the small details the big difference between judo and Bjj.



    Hector Gomez

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    Thanks Hector. I'm aware of the difference in the amount of time available to apply techniques in newaza (as a ref, I was frequently critiqued for letting them work for a newaza technique too long). In terms of techniques, any significant differences? Other than osaekomi waza, I don't see much difference but again that's without having much BJJ knowledge.
    Cary Takagawa

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    Originally posted by cary
    as a ref, I was frequently critiqued for letting them work for a newaza technique too long
    Wow. Usually refs are criticised for not letting it go on long enough. I think most people don't get all the opportunities for ne waza in ground work they should be allowed.

    Rob Thornton

  5. #5
    hector gomez Guest

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    Cary,

    Aside from footlocks and jumping to guard that are not allowed in judo,every other ground technique is valid in judo with the exception of lifting uke's head with your free hand to get a choke.I think this is allowed in bjj but in judo it might warrant a penalty.

    Judo =Great throwing details
    Bjj = Great ground grappling details


    Both can be attained in either art depending on the focus,teacher and goal you want to work towards.I think that if you were to get most olympic oriented judo schools and changed their format and focus toward ground fighting only,eventually they would discover with time the "details"and variations of techniques that have been refined in BJJ.

    I also Forgot to mention no uma plata or goga plata in judo.


    Hector Gomez

  6. #6
    Hissho Guest

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    Originally posted by hector gomez



    I also Forgot to mention no uma plata or goga plata in judo.


    Hector Gomez
    Do you mean in the rules or in the techniques? Uma plata is common in many judo books, and in Kosen Judo tapes, and you can find a gogo plata variant in Syd Hoare's A-Z of Judo, wherein he supposedly got it from Kawaishi's book - called kakato jime.

    Kit LeBlanc

  7. #7
    Kimura Guest

    Default Correcto Mundo

    Kit you are correct.It is in the old school judo curriculum but not in the olympic judo rules.

    Same goes for footlocks,kneelocks,dragdowns,choking with bottom part of gi top.here is one.....Are you allowed to put your foot inside opponent's belt to escape when caught in kamishiho katame?

    I believe they are all not allowed in sport judo and most judo clubs for that matter but still were part of old school judo and still exist in BJJ.

    Hector Gomez

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    Omoplata, literally "shoulderblade", is just an udegarami applied with the legs. I learned it on a Judo mat, ages before I ever heard of BJJ. I've always understood it to be legal under IJF rules.

    Gogá refers to the front of the throat. Gogaplata (from gogá + omoplata) is a BJJ coinage, referring to a choke in which the legs are employed in a way analogous to their use in the omoplata armlock.

    Kawaishi used to teach several such strangles. I believe all of them are IJF legal as long as: (a) the spine is not endangered; (b) the head is not directly scissored; (c) the foot isn't applied directly to the face.

    Am I missing something? Why would these techniques be illegal?
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

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    Default Re: Correcto Mundo

    Originally posted by Kimura
    .....Are you allowed to put your foot inside opponent's belt to escape when caught in kamishiho katame?
    This works better:

    Make some slack in your opponent's collar, behind his head, then insert one knee into the collar. Use your leg and both hands to pitch him forward and to one side. You should be able to follow him into your own kamishihogatame.

    No...it's not legal either, but I learned it in Judo.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  10. #10
    hector gomez Guest

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    Hi brian

    Omoplata is definitely part of the old school judo curriculum but if you go here www.ijf.org and look under hansoku make/grave infrigment groups you will find article#2 which states to apply kansetsu waza anywhere other than the elbow joint is not allowed.

    Omoplata is virtually impossible to attack without putting pressure on the shoulder which is not allowed under ijf rules and most judo schools that I know do not even let you attempt it,now I do agree it is part of the old school judo curriculum.


    As far putting a foot or a leg in the opponents belt,collar or lapel it is also not allowed,please refer to "shido slight infringments group"article 18 along with article#19 which prohibits applying shimewaza with the bottom half of jacket or belt or using the fingers.

    The only one I could not find was gogo plata definition but I have a real good feeling it also might not be allowed in the rules although I could be wrong.

    All of these rules are stated in the IJF rules and are usually followed and respected by the majority of most judo clubs around the world,hopefully you are just as lucky as I am in belonging to a club that does not adhere to all the ijf rules.



    Hector Gomez

  11. #11
    Hissho Guest

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    For those needing visuals:

    Uma/omo plata:

    http://www.bjjfighter.com/techniques...rd/Gi_omoplata

    Goga/gogo plata:

    http://www.bjjfighter.com/techniques...d/gi_gogoplata

    Kit LeBlanc

  12. #12
    Hissho Guest

    Question

    Pics won't download: check out bjjfighter.com in techniques, gi techniques, guard submissions.

    Kit

  13. #13
    Kimura Guest

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    Cool links Kit....Thanks.

    They really show an outline view of omo & gogo plata.

    Does anyone know the judo name or brazilian name for this tech?......assume uke is in your guard you reach up and grab his right collar with your right hand,gently place the bottom of your right foot on the left side of ukes neck,as you pull his collar push upwards on his neck with your right foot "OUCH"This was probably allowed in old school judo,just like it is in BJJ today.

    For better control of this tech grab uke left sleeve with your left hand and place your left foot for support on uke left knee.

    Hector Gomez

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    Originally posted by hector gomez
    Omoplata is virtually impossible to attack without putting pressure on the shoulder which is not allowed under ijf rules and most judo schools that I know do not even let you attempt it
    And how, exactly, does it differ from udegarami, which is permitted.
    As far as I can tell, it puts no more (or less) pressure on the shoulder than a standard udegarami applied from bottom position. It is perfectly legal to apply an armlock with the legs.
    Yours in Judo,

    Brian P. Griffin

  15. #15
    Kimura Guest

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    The udegarami done with the hands might be possible to get the leverage or fulcrum turn on the elbow joint only.Although I personally feel that it still affects the shoulder joint somehow,most judo refferees will sometimes accept this.........very much of a judgement call.


    The udegarami with the legs "IMO" in order to be completed properly you should reach over and grab across the opposite backside of uke body and come foward which automatically put's pressure on the shoulder,causing it to be illegal in comps,with the legs nine times out of ten it visualy and clearly shows some prresure on the shoulder.

    Hector Gomez

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