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Thread: Why is Iaido practised from kneeling?

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    Question Why is Iaido practised from kneeling?

    From what I remember from Japanese history and ettiquite, you remove the katana from your obi and leave it at the door. The wakizashi (kodachi) remains with you. Even when seated, the katana is either at your side or at the door, not in your obi. I can't think of any other time that the katana would be in you obi while seated in sieza, on a stool, a chair, a log, etc., inside or outside a building. So, why do we practise iaido from kneeling with the ken in the obi? Any way I look at it, it dosen't make much sense.
    Sean Moffatt

    "I'm turning Japanese; I really think so."

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    Let's forget all the arguements about whether or not you will ever be attacked while you are wearing your sword and sitting in Seiza. This particular arguement has been done to death.

    Let's look at the following question instead. What is to be gained from training in Seiza?

    I'll just start this little brainstorming session. Remember my experience is heavily colored by MJER. Your milage may vary.

    Strong quads.
    Strong hamstrings.
    Durable knees.
    Good posture.
    Reenforces proper tenouchi.
    Extra practice on some of the core principles from some of the more advanced sets.
    General sense of readiness from any position, even the unlikely.
    Lots of built in Kihon practice in general.
    Seiza prepares you muscularly for Tate Hiza, which is a more useful scenario.


    Feel free to add your own thoughts, this is just the result of a couple of minutes of brainstorming on my part. Keep in mind that the kata are not the style. They are only a training tool to teach you the style. The seiza kata are in the MJER because they are a good training tool to teach you MJER, same as all the other kata. The kata are not a plays in a playbook. They are merely repetitive training exercises.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Talking Training Device

    Because training device does not equal application?

    Why do Kendo only have 4 type of point areas?

    Why do the aiki folks practice suwari-waza? Granted the scene with Steven Seagull in the mini-mart was pretty cool in Hard to Kill, I'd hardly be caught in a situation where I have to defend myself in seiza.

    Why can't you do eye-jabs and kick someone in their family jewels in a kumite?

    Training device is training device. Application is application. As long as you are aware of the limitations of your training device...

    Have fun!
    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    Talking If anything...

    If anything, I'm more curious as to why most iai practitioners don't wear a wakizashi next to the katana when practicing iai...

    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    "Let's look at the following question instead. What is to be gained from training in Seiza?

    I'll just start this little brainstorming session. Remember my experience is heavily colored by MJER. Your milage may vary.

    Strong quads.
    Strong hamstrings.
    Durable knees.
    Good posture.
    Reenforces proper tenouchi.
    Extra practice on some of the core principles from some of the more advanced sets.
    General sense of readiness from any position, even the unlikely.
    Lots of built in Kihon practice in general.
    Seiza prepares you muscularly for Tate Hiza, which is a more useful scenario."

    But that can all be done with just a kodachi in your obi. In sieza, the kodachi is far more agile then pulling the katana out. There are paired kata sets with using the kodachi in mind. What started this whole way of practicing with the katana in the obi in sieza? What was the reason for it? All arguments aside, what was the thought process behind learning the katas this way instead of just using the kodachi?

    Regards
    Sean Moffatt

    "I'm turning Japanese; I really think so."

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    Good question Sean. Unfortunately if you really want to know you will need to find a qualified instructor in a style that practices form seiza...presumably MJER or MSR and wait and see if he/she divulges the information. The answers to some questions are not considered appropriate for the public domain...on the other hand, the best answer I have ever heard from somebody outside the style is one that Ellis Amdur gave a few years back. He responded with "Don't think of it as seiza...think of it as representing that for one reason or another you find yourself not standing and have to get up to fight"

    Hope that helps.
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

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    Originally posted by Aikisean


    But that can all be done with just a kodachi in your obi. In sieza, the kodachi is far more agile then pulling the katana out. There are paired kata sets with using the kodachi in mind. What started this whole way of practicing with the katana in the obi in sieza? What was the reason for it? All arguments aside, what was the thought process behind learning the katas this way instead of just using the kodachi?

    Regards
    You've kinda missed the point. You can learn the kihon of how to use a daito if you are training with a kodachi.

    As to why it was begun, I'm not certain which one, but one of the soke's of MJER got up one day and said, from now on we're going to add some seiza kata to the regular training regimen for all students, with special emphasis placed on newer students.

    Uh oh. I've gone and revealed more critical ryu secrets again. Just remember Scott, if you punish me, no hot sauce for you in San Antonio.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Talking Suburito

    Originally posted by Aikisean

    But that can all be done with just a kodachi in your obi. In sieza, the kodachi is far more agile then pulling the katana out.
    Well, why do people use suburito?

    If you can manage in seiza with a katana, it's like kodachi will pose a problem? The longer the blade, the harder to manage, right?

    And to Scott...glad didn't sign no keppan...many kendo folks that I know don't believe in too much secrets that ain't right in front of ya...being able to perceive the significance of what is in front of you is, however, another matter entirely....

    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    Well then David, you should start to question all those folks who don't seem to be percieving the significance of what is right in front of them

    Charles as long as you deilver on the hot sauce, you are safe with me
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

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    Talking Like me???

    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    Well then David, you should start to question all those folks who don't seem to be percieving the significance of what is right in front of them
    Who me?

    I have these scarry experiences where casual remarks sensei said 7 years ago sudden hits me on the head like a baseball bat...so I'm not really the best person to be going around being an inquisitor here regarding why "other" people don't get it...

    It's like this...

    Sensei: "If you don't know the question, you are not ready for the answer. If you know what question to ask, you are already on the way to your answer. So why do I need to say anything?"

    Me: "Because I'm IMPATIENT??? "

    David Pan

    "What distinguishes budo from various sport activities is the quest for perfection."

    - Kenji Tokitsu

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    For Mugairyu Iaihyodo, I've been told that we practice from seiza (specifically drawing and cutting from seiza) because it forces you to rely on proper technique; hip not arm strength, etc. Accelerating to attack speed from a dead sit is much harder than from a natural stance.
    Of the 20 basic kata in Mugairyu Iaihyodo, 10 are from seiza, 5 are standing, and 5 are running. All are intended to reinforce some basic tenent, though some are "more realistic" than others.

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

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    You all are dead wrong. Iai is properly practiced from seiza because the samurai fought all their battles on their knees! Try it. Run along the dojo floor on your knee caps, you will then understand the deep secrets of seiza no bu.

    [sheesh, guys ... really -- I'm sorry. Neil Yamamoto just channeled through my finger tips]

    Omori Rokurozaemon Masamitsu was a student under Hasegawa Chikaranosuke Eishin (7th soke) and got himself expelled for some reason unknown to us today. Omori went off in a huff and said "Hmmmpf! I'll show them! I'll create my own style." And so it came to pass that he adapted the Eishin's tatehiza waza (raised knee forms) and added bits of courtesy taught in Ogasawara Ryu reishiki (a school of formal etiquitte ... things done in seiza). Voila! He had a system of kneeling techniques heavily influenced by his former teacher. [I've also read that Omori was learned in Shinkage Ryu.]

    Some years later, Eishin dies. Soke #8 comes and goes. Then during the tenure of Hayashi Rokudayu Morimasa (#9) Omori was once again readmitted into the school, and Hayashi incorporated Omori's techniques. As recently as 1935 the two arts were described individually as "Omori Ryu Iai" and "Hasegawa Ryu Iai" in the Toyama Academy fencing manual
    (note 1. Hasegawa is an alternate name for Eishin Ryu.)
    (note 2. I've also read that Omori was readmitted during Eishin's rule -- but I've read more citations that he was readmitted during the 9th soke's tenure.)


    Sometime in the early 20th century Oe Masamichi, Nakayama Hakudo, and another senior teacher reformatted the syllabus and formally applied the name "Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu" comprising the Omori, Eishin, and Hayashizaki [thought to be] waza.

    Earl Hartman is the repository of all this MJER knowledge -- he'll set us straight where I've strayed.

    Regards,
    Guy
    (Quest For Coffee)
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

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    Good post regarding the history of seiza in MJER Guy. But you still didn't tell us "WHY?" Well you almost did with the running around on the knees story...but that was coincidental
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

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    Originally posted by Scott Irey
    Good post regarding the history of seiza in MJER Guy. But you still didn't tell us "WHY?"
    Sure he did. Because Hayashi-soke said so
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

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    Careful Charles...in a pinch I will settle for Pace Picante....
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

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