Likes Likes:  0
Page 2 of 23 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 12 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 332

Thread: Why is Iaido practised from kneeling?

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Denton, Tx
    Posts
    1,237
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Blasphemy!!! You take that back or I'll tell my wife
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    This side of nowhere.
    Posts
    55
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Obviously there is some relevence to the question I pose or there wouldn't be such a response. Does anyone truly know why we train from sieza? Even the founder of Nakamura Ryu Battodo questioned as to why it is done and to this day has yet to receive a satisfactory answer.
    I really would like to know why from a historical and ultimately practical view point why we play samurai from the kneeling position. I understand physically it helps build muscle, coordination, and proper technique for the art in which it is taught. I don't believe the argument that training with the larger weapon improves your kodachi skills; there is no benefit because the muscles behave differently do to the shorter weapon and the maiai is different. Using the Kodachi is more akin to big knife fighting using a Bowie with at least a 10" blade. The big knife is ever seldom used with two hands so it allows the opportunity to grapple with the free hand. The kodachi is used the same way. My best reference would be "Koryu Jujitsu of Japan" (I think that's the title; I don't have the book on me at the moment). In sieza, tate-hiza, or any such prone position, the kodachi is the weapon of choice especially if the other guy goes to grab you.
    If you learn kodachi techniques in your iai style, it is usually secondary as an auxilliary weapon. Why?
    I will sit here and wait for that ultimate answer of answers: "Just Because."

    Regards
    Sean Moffatt

    "I'm turning Japanese; I really think so."

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Sep 2000
    Location
    Seattle, WA. USA
    Posts
    297
    Likes (received)
    2

    Default

    Sean,

    I am only flipant with Charles. I was dead serious when I told you that the only way you will really get the answer to your question is to join a koryu that practices from seiza and hope that after years of practice somebody decides to give you the answer. I am afraid that is just the way it is.

    Charles...if you tell your wife then I would really have nothing to turn to but Pace...if that were to happen I would have to exact revenge on the man who condems me to life with Pace... do what is best for both of us
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    JAPAN
    Posts
    1,620
    Likes (received)
    108

    Default

    As Charles said to train the body and to educate the body to cut from the hips.

    Adding to this: I was with Sekiguchi Komei Sensei at last November's Kobudo Hono Embu Takai. He spoke very quickly and non-stop for 50 minutes on this subject to me.

    Briefly the explanation given to him by his teacher was: Seiza is a Japanese peaceful posture. We sit like this to drink tea, and talk to one another. All the most important things are decided upon when sitting in seiza. By sitting in seiza we are showing other that we are peacful and do not wish to offend.

    If...... the possibility arose that we would have to draw the sword from seiza we should be able to do it proficiently. But essentialy its to teach us to be at peace.

    Hyakutake Colin
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    46
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Most interesting...

    Hi Hyaku,

    Hmmm...haven't heard Sekiguchi-sensei talk much about seiza during his visits Down Under. I must remember to ask him a few more of those curly questions when he visits later this year. I do recall one of my fellow students asked him the meaning of Iai...

    Any other pearls of wisdom from Sekiguchi-sensei? We just don't get to see and talk to him as much as we'd like.


    Best,

    Jonathan

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    This side of nowhere.
    Posts
    55
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Hyaku's reply is the best response to my question yet. The mystique to iai seems to be illustrated in that answer. From a position of peace, we are ready.

    Enough said about this topic. I am content with that answer.

    Thanks to all,
    Sean Moffatt

    "I'm turning Japanese; I really think so."

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,654
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Good thread, and Hyaku's response (from Sekiguchi) is truly awesome.

    May I just add: I'm reading Draeger now (for the first time, actually; Japanese Fighting Arts, Vol I and II) and I think he would say - or at least what I've read suggests - that the reason it is done that way is because of the metamorphosis of iaijutsu techniques into the iaido form. That is, the concern of iaido is no longer on the practical and expected methods of combat but on the Tokugawa-era michi (path, lifestyle) that is to be gained from the practice. By Tokugawa-era I mean the particulat aesthetic of that time. This is me paraphrasing Draeger, by the way, who makes such a big distinction between jutsu and do, which does not necessarily represent my own view.

    In other words, Charles is correct and Hyaku is correct and everyone is correct, but as Guy pointed out, historically what happened is pre-pax-Tokugawa kenjutsu slammed into Tokugawa reigi to make iaido the formal and almost religious, certainly ceremonial, experience that it is, thus, the aesthetic and atmospheric concerns of the art.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Denton, Tx
    Posts
    1,237
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek

    May I just add: I'm reading Draeger now (for the first time, actually; Japanese Fighting Arts, Vol I and II) and I think he would say - or at least what I've read suggests - that the reason it is done that way is because of the metamorphosis of iaijutsu techniques into the iaido form. That is, the concern of iaido is no longer on the practical and expected methods of combat but on the Tokugawa-era michi (path, lifestyle) that is to be gained from the practice. By Tokugawa-era I mean the particulat aesthetic of that time. This is me paraphrasing Draeger, by the way, who makes such a big distinction between jutsu and do, which does not necessarily represent my own view.
    Umm... Ok. Whatever. My opinions on the whole "do" thing are very well known so I won't go over them again. Sometimes I think Draeger did more harm than good.

    I'd just like to point out though that Seiza has been part of the MJER curriculum since the 9th soke. The "do" argument just doesn't really apply here unless you are suggesting that the alleged "transition" away from combat oriented techniques began halfway through the line of sokes.

    The seiza techniques are VERY VERY practical tools for training. They are not plays in a playbook. Football players practice all kinds of wierd stuff like running through a row of tires. They don't do this in case the fans start hurling tires onto the field during the playoffs. They do it because it is an effective way to practice sure footedness on a field that might be full of downed players.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,654
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Charles, I agree with you.

    Please remember that my (mis)representation of Draeger's ideas are based on an inexperienced reading of only a few of his works. Just throwing it in there as food for thought and another perspective.
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Melbourne Australia
    Posts
    327
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Well....I am still new in iaido. Yeah, I am also a bit confused about seiza position. I read one of reply from this thread that say that seiza purpose to strengthen your knee. oke i am agree. But my sensei also show us a waza from seiza (I forgot the name of waza), the idea of the waza is that you are in hallway area with small width, well if I am not wrong. But the waza start from sieza position. I didn't ask about that in training session, but it just come in my mind when i read this thread. So then, why you do seiza in hallway?? Well, I just want to fill up this thread, nothing more. Iaido is an art that so much to learn for me. Another waza, I also forgot the name, the waza also from seiza, but when you draw the sword, your right feet goes forward a bit further but your body bend down just like you come up from cupboard or like there is something above your head. I didnt understand at the first when my sensei told me that the situation indeed you come up/ hide from cupboard. But it makes sense for me when I remember about palaquin in kagemusha movie. But still don't understand about the first waza that I mention above. Other waza make sense to me (well so far I learnt not much). Another question, which one is used for warrior in front line? is it iaido or kenjutsu? I used to assume that most warrior in front line of battle learn kenjutsu not iaido. But tatehiza is sit position when you wear body armor. hmm......still confused..... well I will ask my sensei next week.
    Umar Sesko A. Tri Hananto
    "high quality single man"
    "low profile but high product"

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Denton, Tx
    Posts
    1,237
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Keep in mind that the stated bunkai for a particular kata is often not the only way to see the kata. A kata with a bunkai that states that it is for use in a hallway is also useful in any tight cramped space, like a crowd of people, or a narrow alley or a tight thicket of trees, or a doorway etc. The principle transcends that particular scenario.

    I don't know the kata you are speaking of, but I suspect it involves not moving the sword far away from the plane of your body, if you did you'd hit the wall. That's one of the principles being taught in that kata. How to do things in an enclosed space. Likewise the bunkai for the other kata you mention probably teaches principles for dealing with an overhead obstruction.

    Another question, which one is used for warrior in front line? is it iaido or kenjutsu? I used to assume that most warrior in front line of battle learn kenjutsu not iaido. But tatehiza is sit position when you wear body armor. hmm......still confused..... well I will ask my sensei next week.
    The primary battlefield weapons were spears and bows. Think of the katana as a side arm, like the pistols military officers wear into battle today. They aren't likely to ever be used on a modern battlefield, they are there in case all the other weapons fail. Koryu Iai styles like MJER will teach you how to fight with a drawn weapon as well as how to draw one. Only the first cut is Iai, all the others are kenjutsu.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Denton, Texas
    Posts
    625
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Good point!

    Football players practice all kinds of wierd stuff like running through a row of tires. They don't do this in case the fans start hurling tires onto the field during the playoffs. They do it because it is an effective way to practice sure footedness on a field that might be full of downed players.
    HAHAHAHA! That is the best thing I've read on e-budo since Peter Goldbury's post on the iemoto system yesterday. Remember that Football practice is a -jutsu form since they really put into practice what they are training. Or is it a -do form since there are rules?

    In "Jodo: la voie du baton," Pascal Krieger describes JUTSU and DO as stages of development that everyone goes through in their career in martial arts, whether koryu or whatever. You should not lose the JUTSU aspect just because you are in the DO stage. In fact they depend on each other. The suffix your school uses may indicate the emphasis, but most schools of martial arts will encompass both.
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Tokyo
    Posts
    768
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I think my first post got lost in the shuffle, so for lack of anything better, I'll comment again regarding Mugairyu Iaihyodo: we have kata from seiza, standing, running, and walking. From all those we draw and cut forwards, backwards, to the left, and to the right.
    We also have a crazy kata that involves JUMPING up from seiza to cut a standing opponent's eyes/wrist.
    We do kata from seiza as one part of a broad spectrum of techniques, from basics (suburi across the room) to kata to tameshigiri.
    Some of the kata (cutting an attacker who's tailing you, chasing someone at a run and then suddenly cutting his accomplice who appears to the left or right, etc.) are more "practical" than others, to be sure, but they must all be taken as part of a whole program of training, which in Mugairyu Iaihyodo's case also includes kumitachi, learning the history of our and other martial arts, zazen at the temple, etc.
    You could ask "why do baseball players lift weights?" and think of all kinds of reasons why it doesn't really apply to the skills of swinging a bat or catching/throwing a ball, but taken as a part of a regimen that includes running (jogging, sprinting), weights, nutrition, batting practice, catch ball, team-building excercises, and yoga, then it makes sense.
    Remember, most of us are only glimpsing a very small part of a very big whole.

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Carrollton, Texas
    Posts
    64
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    I'm not about to try and answer the historical question of why we practice iaido in seiza, but I had a big lesson in the practical reason for practicing iai in seiza tonight.

    I had my first instruction in tatehiza tonight. I cringe at the thought of attempting that posture without the leg strengthening that a couple years of seiza practice has given me.

    Consider this idea: Tatehiza was, I believe, a comfortable position for sitting while wearing armor. As the use of armor declined in Japan, then fewer people would naturally be accustom to sitting in that manner making it more difficult to concentrate on other aspects of iai. Perhaps the powers that be decided that practicing in seiza would help students establish a foundation for future techniques by building strength and flexibility.

    I haven't the slightest idea if this is true, just something I thought about while reading the thread.
    Dan Beaird

    The best time to be a hero is when all the other chaps are dead, God rest 'em, and you can take the credit.

    H. Flashman V.C., K.C.B., K.C.I.E.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Denton, Tx
    Posts
    1,237
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    I think you've got a good point. Seiza does help build strong leg muscles which are very much needed in Tate Hiza. Now the reasons for Tate Hiza are many and varied. Armour is one reason, but it is also easier to rise from Tate Hiza quickly. After all, one leg is already up.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

Page 2 of 23 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 12 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. SCIA Fall 2004 Iaido Seminar and Shinsa
    By Ralutin in forum Sword Arts
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 15th October 2004, 08:26
  2. Formalites: vital or !!!!!!%t?
    By Ade in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 27th January 2004, 16:53
  3. Kendo; iaido; when?
    By Charlie Kondek in forum Sword Arts
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 2nd August 2001, 15:35

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •