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Thread: Why is Iaido practised from kneeling?

  1. #31
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    I find Tate Hiza much more comfortable in shoes. I sit that way outsides sometimes as it lets you sit without putting your butt on the ground.
    Jack Bieler

    "The best things can't be told; the second best are misunderstood; the third best are what we talk about." - after Heinrich Zimmer

  2. #32
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    when I did zengogiri,I hurt my knee. It feel like I twisted it. And when I did the noto (in zengogiri), my body is not in balance when I pull my front leg. I have never twist my knee even in soccer training. Yes, for me to train your knee more make sense.
    Umar Sesko A. Tri Hananto
    "high quality single man"
    "low profile but high product"

  3. #33
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    Default Why is Iaido practised from kneeling?

    Because seiza is exactly the wrong position from which to draw a sword.

    Cheers,

    Will

  4. #34
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    Dammit Will.... you are not supposed to be giving away the big secrets like that.
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  5. #35
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    Sorry, I don't know what came over me. What I meant to say is that seiza is...er...a really useful training method. Yeah, training method, that's it. And if you can't see how useful it is then you need to practice it more. A lot more.

    Cheers,

    Will

  6. #36
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    BWA-Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

    Thanks, I needed that!

    --Guy
    Guy H. Power
    Kenshinkan Dojo

  7. #37
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    Seeing as Scott took my name in vain, back a few posts - let me amplify the point he quoted me on - and throw in some others as well.

    1) Although it's true that doing iai from seiza is a great training tool, that is almost surely a subsidiary benefit, found after the fact. Otherwise, it would be the eccentric training tool of one or two ryu - (like Jigen-ryu's tatekiuchi, and Rakumaru-ha Jigen-ryu's yokogiuchi - - - -"Why does one hit a standing piece of wood and the other a bundle of horizontal sticks?") But iai=seiza is nearly universal. If it was the training device for developing strength for more combatively realistic low stances, we'd see a lot more of those stances as well within the iaido ryu. Mostly, we don't.

    2) But, the oldest ryu have a lot of techniques done on the knees - in one of two postures
    a. hanza, which TSKSR calls iaigoshi
    b. iidori - on both knees and the balls of the feet.

    Otake sensei of TSKSR has referred to their "seated" iai as training for infiltration - creeping through tall grass or at night so as not to be sihouetted on the skyline, and/or fighting inside a room, where, surprised, one grabs one's sword off the rack and stays low to avoid sticking the tip in the ceiling. Why, in the latter put the sword on the hip, as opposed to, say, laying it on the tatami? Because the Japanese, unlike the Chinese, don't make story-telling scenarios - they study the principle and formalize it.

    The majority of old schools have, or had iidori - which is also used for jujutsu. This is a formalized scenario training for grappling, or in addition to Otake's examples, what you do if you slip. Araki-ryu has grappling/iai two-person forms in which, from iidori, one with a kodachi fights one with an Odachi. Other schools, I believe, had similar forms, but most such schools are extinct.

    Why the shift to seiza, which is an exclusively indoor posture, rather than iidori which is an anywhere posture? (Note, BTW, that some very rugged styles, made that shift within the past few generations - it's not necessarily hundreds of years old).
    I believe the following:
    1) It is an extension of the principle I mentioned earlier - formalizing the training scenario. Iidori is NOT a way of sitting, per se - it's a "stance" on the knees. You are never asked to "sit down," and because of a certain level or lack of formality, choose to assume that posture. As practice was done indoors, and the meaning of the forms began to become attenuated, shifting to seiza made "sense" as that codified the stance into an appropriate way of sitting inside, where practice was almost exclusively done.
    2) Those who were moving in the direction of cultivation naturally moved in the direction of seiza - quietude.
    3) Iidori hurts the feet. Not only non-Japanese. It is the world's worst for those who have a tendency to get those bone-deep cracks at the base of the toes in the joints, during winter. Iai as a many hour practice, rather than a subsidiary practice within a weapons/grappling system was a new idea - seiza was probably shifted into to be able to tolerate the repetitive, conceivably many hour posture.

    But the basis has to be from combat - you are on the ground for some logical reason - because the initially very practical Japanese fighter started from that - in the same manner as the blood-and-guts crude rolling on the ground with weapons of such systems as kogusoku and koshi-no-mawari became the refined system of Daito-ryu which became, eventually aikido.

    Best
    Ellis Amdur
    www.ellisamdur.com

  8. #38
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    I knew if I uttered his name often enough he would stir and eventually reveal himself... Thanks for the post Ellis. Now if I could corner you someplace other than here or at the bookstore I could perhaps get a peek at that claymore in Japanese clothing I have heard so much about....

    Thanks again, a very informative post as usual.

    Regards,
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  9. #39
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    I think Ellis makes the main point which I have mentioned many times. One simply does not sit outside in seiza unless some kind of sheet has been laid down first. Sitting in seiza outside could be compared to going inside on to tatami with shoes on.

    Doing and watching others do demonstations in Japan on many occasions its a sad fact that a lot of the Iai people really dont know if they are coming or going when they get outside. Also even with some of the narrow standing stances they are falling all over the place on uneven ground. They try and get them inside a Shrine on a floor to compensate and they end up not being able to do that either as the ceilings are all too low. I now sometimes have to go to places I have to demonstrate at to check out the area beforehand.

    One of the main things I had to soon learn at Battojutsu was using a sword outside and build up a strong stance.

    Even tate-hiza should be done on the balls of the feet outside and not with the foot turned under.

    Its hardy a natural position. Many old people suffer and hobble about after doing it for so long.

    My suggestion is get some good knee supports to prevent injury then get on with a good few years to educate that hip action and do lots of alternation between sitting and standing postures.

    Hyakutake Colin
    Hyakutake Colin

    All the best techniques are taught by survivors.


    http://www.hyoho.com

  10. #40
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    Finally some interesting theories on iai from seiza. I wonder if we'll ever know for sure.

    Though I thought I'd skip this round, I did want to mention (as Ellis sort of did) that seiza techniques in Aikido came from the idori techniques from Daito ryu, and as such has known historical application and logic. Thus, using Aikido as an example of another art that uses seiza as a means of improving body physics is not an accurate analogy.

    Ellis, you mentioned "Rakumaru-ha" Jigen ryu. Is this the same as "Yakumaru-ha" Jigen ryu, or are they the same and one of these is a typo? I'd like to keep my notes accurate!

    Regards,
    Nathan Scott
    Nichigetsukai

    "Put strength into your practice, and avoid conceit. It is easy enough to understand a strategy and guard against it after the matter has already been settled, but the reason an opponent becomes defeated is because they didn't learn of it ahead of time. This is the nature of secret matters. That which is kept hidden is what we call the Flower."

    - Zeami Motokiyo, 1418 (Fūshikaden)

  11. #41
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    Nathan -

    It's my memory that the plebian Jigen-ryu is Raku . . . , the "Ra" syllable having a sound sound like "rya" . . . . Might be wrong . .. .

    Best

    Ellis

  12. #42
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    FWIW, there is no seiza in Nagao Ryu. All Nagao Ryu seated forms begin from iidori/iaigoshi, or whatever you want to call it.

    Also, parenthetically, the ceremonial ettiquette of the Heki Ryu of kyudo uses a sitting posture very similar to iaigoshi, with the left knee on the ground, the right knee rasied fairly high, and the weight squarely over the balls of the feet. This was, apparently, considered too martial and crude by the teachers who synthesized the modern form of ceremonial ettiquette. Instead, they adapted/adopted what I have been told is the Ogasawara Ryu form of sitting, where one sits on the balls of the feet with one knee (usually the left) raised very slightly off of the floor.

    A more unnatural and excruciating form of sitting could not possibly be devised, I think. Not only do your toes have to bear most of the weight, since one knee is off the floor you must struggle to keep your balance, and severe shin splints follow almost immediately.

    Having done both, it is quite obvious to me that this unnatural posture was adopted specifically because it was diginified and cultured, having come from the Ogasawara Ryu, the accepted authority on traditional ceremonial ettiquette, and precisely because it was NOT martial, which fit in with the conscious policy of the post-war kyudo federaton. However, for all of its idiocy, it is excellent practice for strengthening the legs and for learning proper dozukuri (balance of the torso).

    The Heki Ryu method of sitting, on the other hand, is obviously martial: it can be maintained for a fair amount of time without your feet falling asleep once you get used to it, and from this posture the archer can immediately assume the kneeling posture used for battlefield shooting simply by straightening up and moving his foot to the right.

    Guess which one I like best.
    Earl Hartman

  13. #43
    Dan Harden Guest

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    A lot of verbiage for what is essentially a beginner's training posture. It has nothing at all to do with a day to day reality in any era known outside of a dojo's walls.
    It has been said that Iai seiza is a dead posture. I think a more appropriate response and to echo Ellis -if it was needed IN ANY WAY to strengthen hips or other such nonsense than I welcome anyone to compare the supposed benefits of it to others who never trained that way at all. Perhaps to test cut against James or Tony or any of the Bugei crowd . Or perhaps a group of my students. I have not spent one day training to draw a sword from a dead posture nor have I; uhh hum... “strengthened” my hips by crawling about. Yet I would be happy to show a field of 2-4" stumps of Oak, maple, pine and poplar. If empirical evidence means anything anymore, I would be equally happy to show you the failed attempts of the knee walking crowd -namely Iai and Aikido people.
    For any attempt at validation of hip strengthening or unified body movement through drawing from your knees- the field makes the discussion a non-starter. It’s just more martial art hogwash.
    Cutting is serious business and there are things that simply work and others that do not. You can talk about your art till you're blue in the face- it will not change the outcome of whether or not you can cut while moving or whether you can move with a blade against a protagonist who knows what he is about.

    Low postures
    Low postures are essential and pragmatic. As an example I offer TSKSR’s Iai goshi. It is not a dead posture, it is highly mobile and flexible -affording both a change of spatial position and vertical position as well as retreat. To make statements of creeping around or defending at night- the position would have to be coherent and rational, which Iai goshi is. Try it in a field, in the snow, over rough terrain. I have! It works. In fact try all of your cutting in rough terrain, up hill, down hill etc.
    We spend time training outdoors doing our kata over roots, among trees and leaves and in fading light to darkness. Even the shading from moon light through trees can be distracting. The dynamics of movement lacking sure footing are not the same. To imagine you know this or your sensei some how magically knows this stuff is a fool’s game.
    We do not suffer the fools who do pretty boy Martial arts virtually unchallenged- why is it any different with a weapon?
    "As you do-so shall you do."
    Get edgy, push the ryu, push yourself.
    Some of these techniques were invented by highly skilled adepts trying to codify movement for future generations. Others were Lord Fauntleroy techniques from day one of their inception. Developed by foppish, overly detail-orientated people offering up this ilk to like minded people. That is why there are so many fallacies in the arts and why we have senior people who can be taken apart without much effort.
    If you want to spend a Saturday, cross stepping down an imaginary flight of stairs while supposedly cutting down your intrepid foe, or drawing down on an imaginary foe in a narrow space then for gosh sakes DO IT!
    Test it
    Test you
    And do it for the life of your training
    After you rework it and get continually challenged by someone who knows how to use a blade (and his mind) you may just become a serious adept with a weapon, and in the process become equally adept at discerning fact from Japanese fantasy.

    As for Ryu formalities and the like we all have to do it. Be careful that you don't end up with just that and that alone. All these pretty little techniques in a box inside your head that have never been opened nor seen the light of day.

    cheers
    Dan

  14. #44
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    A few random thoughts, all relevant only to my own style Mugairyu Iaihyodo. (Note: it's a 300 year-old koryu, but is also most definitely iai(hyo)do not kenjutsu)

    * During a recent cutting practice, I asked Sano-sensei why we practice cutting from a draw in seiza, being that's it's basically 'impractical' in the sense that one would never be found sitting in seiza, sword in obi, enemy attacking. To which he simply replied: "Because it's hard."

    * While we do practice kumitachi and have several more 'realistic' kata that include running, turning, parrying, multiple foes, etc., we also are reminded that we practice an art, and, as Gosoke tells us "Budo begins and ends with 'rei'." The formalities, from opening/closing bows to properly respectful greetings to sitting in seiza, is what makes what we do an art, other than a series of military (martial) techniques. We strive for "jutsu-no-naka ni michi-o miidashi": finding the spiritual/philosophical path within the physical techniques.

    * From a practical point of view, developing proper technique from a seated draw most certainly makes one's standing techniques better. Isolated in seiza, it's much harder to get away with NOT using the hips to drive the power, it's much more obvious when the timing of the lower and upper body is out of sync, it's much harder to 'fake' a cut with armstrength alone. As Tanaka-sensei says: "It's a nihonto, of course it cuts! But we're not mowing lawns." Anyone with a reasonable amount of arm strength can swing a sharp sword down from overhead and cut a roll in half, but that's not the technique we're working on. From a dead sit, to accelerate to attack speed, hit the target and cut cleanly, and finish in a well-balanced stance is non-trivial, excellent practice, and lots of fun.

    That's why WE practice from seiza! But as I've said before, different styles are different, so just because Guy Power doesn't cut rolls from a seated draw that doesn't mean my ryuha is 'better' or 'worse', just different.

    Regards,
    renfield kuroda

  15. #45
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Renfield
    In the world of diversity and political correctness everyone is the same. In the world of War and competition everyone is not. There are arts that are better than others for different things at different times; there are men who are better than others at the same things they do, at the same time.
    The Iraqis had their shot at preparing for war. So did the Americans. I don’t think we will be adopting the Iraqi training method anytime soon. In most conflicts one will win- one will lose.
    Now, in the rarified atmosphere of Budo philosophy- your only competition/enemy is yourself.
    In the remainder of the physical plain called reality- your competitor or enemy is someone who has trained harder and in a more pragmatic fashion.
    If one elects to do an art for arts sake and spends the majority of their training time alone on their knees on a smooth floor facing a mental image- then they should make peace with it and not talk amongst themselves or others about swordsmanship-you're just doing an art. Of course you are free to say or do whatever you wish but to what extent are you able to do anything more than postulate a theory you have been told will work? In some respects that applies to us all.
    Others have elected to take up a weapon of war and endeavor to learn its attributes as a weapon against men who are intent on seeing those same efforts undone- they ended up focusing on entirely different things-and wind up with an art in their hands as well. They in turn may say or do whatever they wish. They may or may not have more qualitative opinions about what will work beyond what they were told.

    At the end of the day, you don’t get something, for nothing. No one will understand a highly charged atmosphere of challenge, timing and mental preparedness against a foe unless they spend time in a highly charged atmosphere being challenged and learning timing and mental preparedness in facing a man. No one is going to learn that on their knees in solo kata. Add to that the cutting work-which many do not do..
    Life has a host of ugly truths. There are methods and training regimens for physically competitive skills that are better than others. So it is with martial arts. Some are better than others, some adepts in a single art are better then others. It just depends on what your goals are.
    I say do what we’re told, train what we're taught-then get out there and test it and ourselves. There is certainly no harm in it and it gives us a more rounded view. There is nothing like standing next to someone who has never trained the way you do and yet they can do what you do or better you. The next time someone says “We do it this way because…” takes on a certain nuance.
    Case in point- I’ve seen a lot of guys with “Aiki” theories who can’t remain standing against a good judo man.
    Are they both good arts? Sure!
    Who keeps winning?

    Do it all

    Cheers
    Dan
    Last edited by Dan Harden; 6th May 2003 at 13:23.

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