Likes Likes:  0
Page 5 of 23 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 15 ... LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 332

Thread: Why is Iaido practised from kneeling?

  1. #61
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Posts
    453
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by Dan Harden

    1.My point here is that you could remove all the nonsensical draws from Seiza. How and where does that translate to all Iai is crap? It doesn't.
    Know why? It isn't and I don't think that way-you just think I do.
    2. I said you need to practice intense Two man kata in a ryu that has intensive kata with sword. If you don't you don't know sword. Your study is incomplete. Opnions are not required from you, me or anyone else. It is self-evident.
    Groovy.

    You should go start Dan-ryu and do just what you suggest.

    The rest of us follow orders- seiza first.

    You cant learn swordsmanship without learning seiza first for one very simple reason.
    The sensei teaches seiza first. You dont get a choice to NOT learn it.


    Sensei: We are doing seiza.

    You: I dont like that, what else can I do?

    Sensei: OK, Put on your shoes.

    You: Cool, what now?

    Sensei: Go home.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Denton, Tx
    Posts
    1,237
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Originally posted by Douglas Wylie

    Groovy.

    You should go start Dan-ryu and do just what you suggest.

    The rest of us follow orders- seiza first.

    You cant learn swordsmanship without learning seiza first for one very simple reason.
    The sensei teaches seiza first. You dont get a choice to NOT learn it.
    Ok I guess I'll jump in here before Dan does.

    Dan's point is that you can learn swordsmanship without learning seiza first, and he's right. He doesn't have to start his own ryu in order to avoid sezia. There are several koryu kenjutsu schools which do not perform seiza waza as part of their training curriculum.

    It's even possible to learn MJER without doing Seiza. There are apparently a few cases of folks with bad knee trouble being given alternative standing versions of the Seiza waza. Don't know how far you can really get in MJER this way, but it has been known to happen.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Cambridge, UK
    Posts
    50
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by Douglas Wylie
    You cant learn swordsmanship without learning seiza first for one very simple reason.

    The sensei teaches seiza first. You dont get a choice to NOT learn it.
    Unless you choose to study Toyama Ryu or Nakamura Ryu.

    Cheers,

    Will

  4. #64
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Posts
    453
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by Will Wetherell


    Unless you choose to study Toyama Ryu or Nakamura Ryu.

    Well, there you have it Dan. Go study that.

    BTW Not all aikido people are peace loving hippies. Some of us are evil meat eating judo animals who use their "aiki theories" to accentuate their judo.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Blue Ridge, Texas
    Posts
    2,000
    Likes (received)
    125

    Thumbs down Rein it in please! ...

    Mr. Wylie,
    Mr. Harden already practices a koryu art, and has so for probably longer than you have been alive. This particular thread has been pretty interesting. There has been some re-hashing of old statements, but there has also been a lot of interesting stuff in it. My thanks to the participants for all the ideas. Mr. Harden has some definite beliefs about how he thinks 'proper' swordsmanship should be learned. This is to be expected from someone that has practiced a koryu as long as he has. He is entitled to his opinions as well as junior practitioner's respect simply for the time he has applied to learning the art.

    Unless you are studying the same art, your opinions will be different from his. There is no need for you to either defend what you are learning, or to be snotty about what you perceive as a slight to what you are learning. There are others with far more knowledge and insight into your art that have made some good contributions to this thread. Please allow them to continue to do so.

    As for everyone else that is perhaps lining up on either side of this issue, please stop and think for a moment. Nothing that we do is done without a reason. Many times we can only speculate as to what those reasons are, but there had to have originally been a reason. Before making declarations about what does and doesn't work, bear in mind that it's all just conjecture. We may all suck and not have a clue! (Thanks for that one Dan!) Since none of us ever has, or is ever likely to engage in a sword duel, it's all just theory with no proof. I have my own theories and things that I believe, but haven't been at this long enough to have convictions yet. I leave the convictions to the old ... err... I mean ... more senior exponents of the arts.

    I'll now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion!

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  6. #66
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    119
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    First off, I do MSR, so I have plenty of seiza time under my obi.
    This being said, I agree with Dan that seiza is not necessary to teach someone to fight with a sword (in a very general sense, as it is NECESSARY if it is part of the technique-building methods of the ryu that you happen to study). There are plenty of traditions that have survived just fine and been very successful in use without ever teaching any one to do kata from seiza.
    However, it IS part of MJER and MSR, and therefore necessary to those systems. Here I also agree with Dan that the student could benefit from an equal emphasis on paired kata (as there once was).
    Could you teach someone just the standing kata of MJER/MSR to any level of proficiency? Of course you could. This is likely how it was done early on. However, the shoden/chuden/okuden progression is a PROCESS. By this I mean that seiza is used for teaching basic techniques and developing a foundation. Chuden and okuden have other purposes,and also fulfill roles in the PROCESS.
    Someone else said it above, that seiza is used precisely because it is a difficult position to move from. It's true that Iaigoshi is much more practical and mobile than seiza, but I feel that if one can learn to move well from seiza(and Tatehiza), it will be far easier when employing something easier like Iaigoshi.
    Is seiza historically accurate? no, of course not. Even the "scenarios" in kata are not meant to be taken too seriously. Tanashita and Mongyu are not meant to teach " this is what you do if you are lying in wait under an overhang", or "this is what you do if you are suddenly attacked while passing under an arch". These kata are simply meant to teach you how to deal with some kind of overhead obstruction.
    Is seiza NECESSARY to teach swordsmanship? No, but it does have some benefits.
    BOTTOM LINE: Seiza is a fixed,static position from which certain kata begin (So is tatehiza,so is tahiiai, so is iaigoshi).Does it really matter? If your system does some kata from seiza, then so do you. If not, then oh well.

    Brian

    PS- Dan, nice to see you Sunday.

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Denton, Tx
    Posts
    1,237
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Good post Brian. I'd just like to point out that Tachi Uchi no Kurai is most certainly not dead. It is still an integral part of MJER at the more advanced levels. At least, that's my understanding. Not there yet.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Aug 2000
    Location
    New Hampshire
    Posts
    119
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Charles,
    I know that Tachiuchi no kurai is not dead. I am familiar with it myself. I am, however, concerned about the future of Tsumeiai no kurai(still taught,but less common),Daishozume,Daisho tachizume,Daikendori,etc. I am also concerned that the older generation of Japanese sensei chose at some point to de-emphasize all this. I hope that anyone in a position to help preserve and spread this material will do so.

    Brian

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Feb 2001
    Location
    Michigan
    Posts
    1,654
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Wanna see this thread go 5 more pages? I'll jump in and say something like:

    Hogwash. You iai-ists and koryu-ka argue all you want. Fact is, if you're not doing kendo, you're really not learning anything at all about fighting with a sword.

    But we wouldn't want to see that, now, would we?

    Here, I'll save you the trouble:

    Blah blah shinai not a sword blah blah old school kendo blah blah let's see you do that with shinken blah blah understanding of ma-ai blah blah kendo + iai + koryu blah blah...

    Ignore me, folks. Just trolling!
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

  10. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Bergen Norway
    Posts
    925
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    I think doing haya suburi, with shinken, on a nice carcass, would be excellent cross-training. Then you avoid seiza as well.
    Roar Ulvestad

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Posts
    453
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default Re: Rein it in please! ...

    Mr. Harden already practices a koryu art, and has so for probably longer than you have been alive.

    Congratulations. Please send me a used dinner so I can worship it.

    Mr. Harden has some definite beliefs about how he thinks 'proper' swordsmanship should be learned. This is to be expected from someone that has practiced a koryu as long as he has. He is entitled to his opinions as well as junior practitioner's respect simply for the time he has applied to learning the art.

    If he has "the way" already why is he discounting the teachings of many ryu (even reaching outside sword arts) if not to "stir the pot".
    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    to strengthen hips or other such nonsense

    the failed attempts of the knee walking crowd -namely Iai and Aikido people

    martial art hogwash

    fools who do pretty boy Martial arts

    Developed by foppish, overly detail-orientated people offering up this ilk to like minded people

    Japanese fantasy

    I’ve seen a lot of guys with “Aiki” theories who can’t remain standing against a good judo man

    nonsensical draws from Seiza
    Those are all pretty strong words. He is flat out using the tactic "If I make you look bad, I look better".

    He is looking for just what he found and knows exactly who he is offending.

    Now I am told NOT to take him to task because he is elderly. He isnt writing like he is elderly, or like he deserves my kowtowing.

    He particuliarly calls Omori and the heads of certian ryu, who has more experience than him, foppish and overly detail oriented. Now talk to me about "respecting your elders" and the art of being "snotty".

    Unless you are studying the same art, your opinions will be different from his. There is no need for you to either defend what you are learning

    There will REALLY be no need to defend it when he stops attacking it.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  12. #72
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Posts
    453
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    Originally posted by Charlie Kondek
    Wanna see this thread go 5 more pages? I'll jump in and say something like:

    Hogwash. You iai-ists and koryu-ka argue all you want. Fact is, if you're not doing kendo, you're really not learning anything at all about fighting with a sword.

    But we wouldn't want to see that, now, would we?

    Here, I'll save you the trouble:

    Blah blah shinai not a sword blah blah old school kendo blah blah let's see you do that with shinken blah blah understanding of ma-ai blah blah kendo + iai + koryu blah blah...

    Ignore me, folks. Just trolling!
    Blah blah blah metal helmet like the samurai blah blah blah men ineffective blah blah blah die quickly blah blah blah
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Dec 2001
    Location
    Denton, Tx
    Posts
    1,237
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default

    Douglas, while your rhetoric is defensive in nature it is no less harsh than that which you criticize. Two wrongs and all that.

    Dan will not be convinced by anything you or I say regarding the usefulness of seiza as a training implement. He is really the only person that I've notifced attack seiza in such a brutal manner online, so there is no one else to convince. Even if there were, attacking Dan, because he attacks seiza is not a good way to convince anyone else that seiza is a good training tool.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  14. #74
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    Baton Rouge, LA
    Posts
    453
    Likes (received)
    0

    Default

    True Charles.

    I didnt intend to get into it that far.

    PG's "you will eat it and like it" admonishment turned my stomach.

    My apologies to Dan.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    Bergen Norway
    Posts
    925
    Likes (received)
    1

    Default Re: Re: Rein it in please! ...

    "the failed attempts of the knee walking crowd -namely Iai and Aikido people

    martial art hogwash

    fools who do pretty boy Martial arts

    Developed by foppish, overly detail-orientated people offering up this ilk to like minded people

    Japanese fantasy

    I’ve seen a lot of guys with “Aiki” theories who can’t remain standing against a good judo man

    nonsensical draws from Seiza"



    I think that mr harden has written excellent. the above expressions i think are just fine. I am not offended in anyway, even though the arts I try hard to learn and teach are in the middle of Mr Hardens shootingfield.

    It is good to reflect upon your art, and the limitations and possibilities, and not fall asleep in a oriental martial art delusion, lunching badly discuised claims of spiritual and martial superiority to whatever Hard Bingo martial art or affiliation you may belong.
    Roar Ulvestad

Page 5 of 23 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 15 ... LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. SCIA Fall 2004 Iaido Seminar and Shinsa
    By Ralutin in forum Sword Arts
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 15th October 2004, 08:26
  2. Formalites: vital or !!!!!!%t?
    By Ade in forum Member's Lounge
    Replies: 25
    Last Post: 27th January 2004, 16:53
  3. Kendo; iaido; when?
    By Charlie Kondek in forum Sword Arts
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 2nd August 2001, 15:35

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •