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Thread: Why is Iaido practised from kneeling?

  1. #76
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    launching not lunching.
    Roar Ulvestad

  2. #77
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    Unhappy Misunderstanding ...

    Mr. Wylie,
    I didnt intend to get into it that far.
    PG's "you will eat it and like it" admonishment turned my stomach.
    You misunderstood what I said. I never said "you will like it", what I said was "why are you training?" If what someone that is not in your organization says is so important to you that it turns your stomach or makes you upset, you really should reexamine your motives. I train for my own reasons and for myself. What those in my organization think and say is important to me. The others I just enjoy their company and try to expand my knowledge when I can. It's impossible to learn much when you're angry.

    Cheers,
    Paul Smith
    "Always keep the sharp side and the pointy end between you and your opponent"

  3. #78
    Dan Harden Guest

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    Charles

    I won't slog through a response point by point -I think we got it right together. We understand each other but dissagree. But in the end-we all have to do what we're told. Your point about the training methodology are well known and irreversable. I am at least glad you have a more balanced understanding of our differing views. I feel strongly about just a few points- not the whole art. Seiza, lack of predominate two man kata training and overstressing of minute details are about it. The comments about it being established that way as well as the hundreds of teachers who have established it are right on. Who in the art should question it? That's your call Bud. Can outsiders question it? You bet. Personally I am glad for questions, doubts, sincere critique of methods-the soundness of which may be in doubt, challenges to cogency etc. It's in all the arts and it bodes well for us. Each one resolves these issues in our own time and in our own way.
    I think Brians point about the list of two man Kata is interesting in that from the many who have posted here- it seems it is a minority who practice them on a regular basis and even then several have stated they are fading in places. You might note the fact that he is looking at his art from the inside and sees some truth and agreement in the few points I have offered.

    Brian
    It was nice to see you to. Although I am glad for your growing family, it would have been nice to see you next to Matt talking with Meik, Diane and Bob-though you beer drinkers put me to shame. I feel like a foo-foo boy ordering Chardonnay with all you guys ordering more versions of beer and Ale than I have ever heard of...Man I gotta get out more. Even Diane had a veritable list of libations memorized. There she is- all class and sweetness and drinking me under the table. Then we get to Matts house and he has all this stuff in stock too...Gees!


    Charlie
    Go get em!-comments about the comparative viability of Judo can well be applied to Kendo as well. Don't ever stop. Judo, jujutsu and Kendo grounds us all. They are an excellent reminder of conflict and kata resolution. Judo and Kendo keep us honest.

    Doug
    Don't get so mad bud. Argue on point.The beauty of E-budo is you can step outside and look in to your art from another's perspective-sometimes good, sometimes bad or misinformed. I have sometimes found kernels of truth in the staunchest adversaries. There's much we can see good and bad in everything we ALL do. In the big picture we are all fortunate to be doing ANY sword art.

    As for the thread dying- why should it? I have never seen Iai damaged by it- have you? It returns often as the training method cast doubts in many. Some of whom are very serious life long Budoka.
    The Iaidoka explain it well, so do the critics-as it should be.
    The doubt will never go away-but doubts are in every art. Solo kata in anything stirs questions, lack of challenging conflict or aggression and the appropriate training to handle it in a Martial art stirs questions even more. It's natural.

    Do it all-its all good
    cheers
    Dan

  4. #79
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    Default Re: Misunderstanding ...

    Originally posted by pgsmith
    Mr. Wylie,


    You misunderstood what I said. I never said "you will like it", what I said was "why are you training?" If what someone that is not in your organization says is so important to you that it turns your stomach or makes you upset, you really should reexamine your motives. I train for my own reasons and for myself. What those in my organization think and say is important to me. The others I just enjoy their company and try to expand my knowledge when I can. It's impossible to learn much when you're angry.

    Cheers,
    Thanks for the psych eval, hoss.

    My motives for MA training and griping at the less-than enlightened are different. What can be said for your motives for trying to play papa-san here.

    The turning of the stomach results from the arrogance people display when they act like I OWE them something. (Like a thorough butt kissing) To properly state my position on that Mr Lindsey needs to add a "finger" emoticon.

    You earn respect, you dont get it for free.

    I believe what you said was-
    Originally posted by pgsmith
    He is entitled to his opinions as well as junior practitioner's respect simply for the time he has applied to learning the art.
    He's not studing my art.

    Opinions are like... well you know.

    But respect... I never got the memo re:entitlement of respect to a guy I dont even know, whom I have no obligation to, or ever learned anything from.

    Somebody FWD that one to me.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  5. #80
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    Default Re: Rein it in please! ...

    We may all suck and not have a clue!
    I would like to state unequivocally and for the record: I know for a fact that I suck. That's why I practice every day.

    Regards,

    r e n

  6. #81
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    Default

    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    Argue on point.
    Trying to be on point. AND nice.

    Do you think you are unique to wonder why {insert whatever here}?

    Do you think that everyone in Japan is unable and did not ask those same questions and answer them?

    Is it possible there is some insight that you dont have and is not available free to you to download from the internet.

    You must have ALL the answers. Come across an answer you cant have and the best you can come up with is "It is a weakness, they ALL (many thousands)have no idea what they are doing".

    All I see is you talking trash to make yourself look "better" in some transparent attempt to assure yourself "I do the really real real stuff therefore my worth as a human is more than someone elses".

    Ask your questions if you need but cant it be done in a nicer way. This is not nice-Developed by foppish, overly detail-orientated people offering up this ilk to like minded people We know who these people are. Can you find no better way than this?

    Poor self image. Just trying to justify yourself and thats fine. Taking the names of people everyone agrees were great through the mud is not.

    I know I have to do seiza but I do not know the specific physical reason why.

    Does this bother me? No. I see awesome swordsmen and I want to be like them. This is how to be like them. End of story.

    What if seiza was-Basic training to weed out the unfaithful.

    It would be working well, huh.

    Hello, wake up call- We dont fight with swords anymore. What is the problem? If your goal in practicing swordsmanship is to win a swordfight you can stop now. Let the ego BS go.

    Just do your thing.
    Last edited by Douglas Wylie; 8th May 2003 at 01:25.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  7. #82
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    Default

    Doggone it. Double post.
    Douglas Wylie

    Do not learn philosophy from fortune cookie.

  8. #83
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    Default T. ALVAREZ

    I just got the chance to post in regards to some opinions that our little friend Charles¡¨ The Crusader¡¨ had put up a couple of pages back in this thread.

    I have three words for you: Silly little man! These really aren¡¦t the words that I want to use, but out of respect for your teacher they will have to do.

    I find it very amusing as do many of us in the budo world that you feel that after 6yrs. Of doing Iai with very little experience in any form of kumitachi or any other sword art for that matter that you can depict or decide what is right and wrong among others outside of your renmei the Seitokai.

    My suggestion to you is that you should train more and talk less! Yes Crusader. That means that you have a knack for putting your foot in your mouth on a regular basis with only the knowledge of what you have learned from the Seitokai.

    Don¡¦t get me wrong. I¡¦m not offended by what you said about my technique. I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to help you understand the differences between my Iai and Kenjutsu from yours. Just let me know and I will be more than happy to accommodate you.

    DAN:
    Thanks for the props earlier in this thread. One of these days I gotta get out your way to kill some trees and drink some beers with you and Cady.

    REN: as always. ¡§It¡¦s all good¡¨.

    DIANE: remember. The beers on me in Texas. Scott Irey and I have decided that you must be extremely hung over for the Keiko session on Sunday. ļ

    I hope this helps explain a few things.


    BIG TONY
    Senpokan Dojo
    Bugei Trading co.
    BIG TONY

    Senpokan Dojo
    Tozai Imports

  9. #84
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    Default Re: T. ALVAREZ

    Originally posted by T. ALVAREZ
    I just got the chance to post in regards to some opinions that our little friend Charles¡¨ The Crusader¡¨ had put up a couple of pages back in this thread.

    I have three words for you: Silly little man! These really aren¡¦t the words that I want to use, but out of respect for your teacher they will have to do.

    I find it very amusing as do many of us in the budo world that you feel that after 6yrs. Of doing Iai with very little experience in any form of kumitachi or any other sword art for that matter that you can depict or decide what is right and wrong among others outside of your renmei the Seitokai.

    My suggestion to you is that you should train more and talk less! Yes Crusader. That means that you have a knack for putting your foot in your mouth on a regular basis with only the knowledge of what you have learned from the Seitokai.

    Don¡¦t get me wrong. I¡¦m not offended by what you said about my technique. I would be MORE THAN HAPPY to help you understand the differences between my Iai and Kenjutsu from yours. Just let me know and I will be more than happy to accommodate you.
    Huh. And after all the ridiculous effort I went through trying to make it clear that I was pointing out a difference that I noticed strictly through what I had seen in the videos at the Bugei website. And that I was trying to be clear that I was pointing out a percieved difference between what you did on those videos and a core principle in MJER.

    I have never said anything critical about another style that I can recall online. I have certainly said very little critical about any other style. I fully recognize that I am barely able to write about MJER, let alone any other style. For some reason, I have found myself unable to stop jumping into this kind of conversation and conversing with others. I was under the impression that as long as you are not insulting or outright hostile, ebudo is meant for this kind of discussion. Not just for those who have trained for decades but for the rest of us as well. Despite the rather defensive nature of my posts, and that I have stuck pretty much exclusively to what I do know, I find it odd that I have been reprimanded for having "a knack for putting your(my) foot in your(my) mouth on a regular basis ".

    One more time. For the record. It was not a critique. I was not trying to "depict or decide what is right and wrong among others outside of your renmei the Seitokai". I was noting a difference. I think Dan presented some good reasoning for the difference I was noting. Feel free to get on me when I do screw up. Lord knows it happens often enough. Don't jump down my throat for something that simply did not happen.

    If e-budo is indeed a place where it is inappropriate to note the differences between one style and another, then I guess it really is time to shutup and train more.

    One more time the exact words were: (note the bit at the bottom in bold)
    As for your assertion that James and Big Tony do just fine without seiza, I suppose that depends on what you mean by "fine". Clearly by your definition they do. They sure can cut. In MJER, one of the things seiza teaches you is to keep your hips under you when you cut. Kinda hard not to when you are on your knees. This principle then carries over into standing forms. From what little I have seen of footage of James and Tony cutting online, it is clear that they do not use this principle. The upper bodies of both appear to lean well forward of their hips when cutting.

    Now before anyone freaks and gets offended, I'm not saying they do it wrong. Just different. Throwing more of your weight into the cut seems like it might provide a more powerful cut. Heck I'm sure there are all kinds of kihon reasons within their systems which dictate such cutting, but I suspect MJER has its own reasons for not doing so.
    The context was of Dan making an arguement that there is nothing beneficial to training from seiza. Seiza no bu in MJER emphasizes keeping your hips under you. As Dan had held you and James up as an example of not needing seiza in order to be good at what you do, I used your performances as an example. Why you? Simple he had already brought you into the discussion as an example, and I had at least some idea of what your style looks like and could use it conveniently to illustrate the point. Turns out to have been a bad example as you do indeed do seiza. I noted that above.

    No offense or critique was ever intendbed.

    [edit]
    intendbed... I must be more tired than I thought.
    [/edit]
    Last edited by Charles Mahan; 8th May 2003 at 03:03.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  10. #85
    Dan Harden Guest

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    To Tony
    Hey guy! No problem with props- you earned em!

    You're right, one of these days we have to get together. James keeps asking, and my life is just starting to free up again. I am dying to see a comparison between tree cutting and grass cutting on the level you do it at. BTW, your as nuts as I am! Just have to keep pushing eh?
    James kept talking to me about getting Don out here. I have new Swain mats coming and a renovation going- I should organize and get it done already.
    About the beer......you guys are killing me. I'm gonna have to learn all kinds of new fangled brews just to be a decent host. I'll send Matt out to stock the frig-then I'll look intelligent and everyone will be happy.
    Lets talk about a fall thing. I think I have a small enough bed for a man of your dimunitve stature. Its a futon my son uses.
    We could do a cutting competition on trees! I'll pre-cut yours to give you a chance.
    Whats that shadow coming my way? Is it an eclipse blocking the sun?
    Running and duckin
    Dan

  11. #86
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    Charles,
    I guess you are entitled to your opinion, the problem occurs when it is based on video seen on the internet that is a minute or two long. I know it has already been made clear to you that Tony has plenty experience working in seiza. I would also like to add that I have worked out with Tony and he is always emphasizing the importance of the hips in iai, kenjutsu, and tameshigiri.
    I of course realize there was no malice intended in your post. And I'm sure you will be more conscientious when voicing your opinion about things you have so little information about.
    Good luck with your training

    John Lovato

  12. #87
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    Well you see.......ah...never mind....somebody must owe me a beer...
    Scott Irey
    Just another one of those "few peanuts short of a snickers bar" MJER guys.

  13. #88
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    Talking

    <B>Whats that shadow coming my way? Is it an eclipse blocking the sun? Running and duckin
    Dan</B>

    Careful what you get us into, Dan. Tony is a big, BIG man. A big, BIG man with a sharp, pointy sword.
    Cady Goldfield

  14. #89
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    Originally posted by John Lovato
    Charles,
    I guess you are entitled to your opinion, the problem occurs when it is based on video seen on the internet that is a minute or two long.
    Actually there was no opinion posted. No judgement call. Nothing. There was an observation, based on admittedly shaky data.


    I of course realize there was no malice intended in your post. And I'm sure you will be more conscientious when voicing your opinion about things you have so little information about.
    Good luck with your training
    Of course there wasn't. As for being mroe conscientious... If we cannot have a discourse on this site that involves comments and observations based on our experience with people of other systems, why are we here? Sure others are free to disagree with those observations. I had thought up till now that e-budo was meant in part to help clear up misperceptions. This is apparently a misperception on my part, given the reaction. Apparently Big Tony does observe the basic MJER principle of keeping your hips firmly, and directly below your shoulders, no matter how much it appears that he and James lean forward a bit during their tameshigiri cuts. I can only assume that it is a principle in his style as well, as I doubt he would be adding an MJER principle to his.

    Fine I'm willing to admit the mistake. It was, as had been admitted long before Tony jumped on here to rip me a new one, a bad example, but the only one that I had at my disposal for the sake of the above arguement.

    So I'll ask it again, is e-budo an appropriate place for discourse? Admittedly I'm not an advanced student of the JSAs. I've gone out of my way on multiple occasions to make that clear. I barely qualify as an intermediate student. Tony has made it clear that he feels that I should not take part in discourse here where comparative styles are concerned, even when they are purely defensive in nature and touch on the subject which I do know.

    My rhetoric has been calm and rational at pretty much all times. The hot water which I currently find myself in stems from a faulty observation used as an example to illustrate what Seiza teaches MJER folks. The rhetoric in that example was ESPECIALLY cautios. I even pointed out to Douglas when his rhetoric seemed particularly harsh, despite the fact that he largely agreed with me. I feel that by and large I have a history of posting in favor of tolerance of other styles on this board and others. I haven't taken any gruff about MJER being a good system, but I've kept the language strictly calm and rational, never stooping to petty insults.

    So is e-budo strictly for the advanced students and teachers? If so a lot of us need to leave. Is e-budo for discourse strictly within cliques of people within the same art with no discourse comparing different styles? Gee I hope not. That would be boring as heck. Is there a place for beginners and intermediate students in any of these discussions that does not demand blind agreement with any statement given by an instructor of another system, even when it is deragatory about your own style?

    I don't know. As no one has jumped in to defend me here, perhaps it is time to retire from the community for awhile. It seems I do more harm than good despite my best efforts.
    Charles Mahan

    Iaido - Breaking down bad habits,
    and building new ones.

  15. #90
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    Default

    Originally posted by Dan Harden
    Charlie
    Go get em!-comments about the comparative viability of Judo can well be applied to Kendo as well. Don't ever stop. Judo, jujutsu and Kendo grounds us all. They are an excellent reminder of conflict and kata resolution. Judo and Kendo keep us honest.
    Dan, this is true, but it goes both ways, as well. Interacting or cross-training with other arts and the proponents of other arts should ground kendo (and judo), and keep kendo (and judo) honest, as well. I was being quite flippant in my last post. (Ya think? ) Anyone who suggests to me that a person should train in kendo AND iaido AND/OR koryu kenjutsu (if possible) would find themselves preaching to the choir.

    Can I get a witness?
    We are the Sherlock Holmes English Speaking Vernacular. Help save Fu Manchu, Moriarty and Dracula.

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