Jo threads

[Andy Watson]

Come on guys. The jo section is going to get the reputation for the least suscribed area at this rate.

Has no one got anything to post?

[ulvulv]

In BKA, do many clubs practise the additional weapons in smr, like kenjutsu-jutte-kusarigamma tanjo etc..? Is there a norm of what level you should do jodo before doing one of the additional weapons, like seite-shoden-tanjo-chuden-kenjutsu and so on?

[Jack B]

Good question, ulvulv!

Andy, I just figured we were all too busy practicing... that's a good thing!

Actually, I figured Jo is a pretty obscure art, not very romantic, and the practitioners are (mostly) mature and self-actualized.

[Andy Watson]

Putting that question to the BKA is a very good one on the basis that myself and my sempai who is the jodo bucho think that the teaching of the auxilliary arts as well as correct seitei and the koryu in other BKA dojos is very inconsistent.

There are about only five or so dojos who really train in jodo seriously. By far the most advanced one currently is Jugokan, headed by Dr Lee Ah Loi 7th who is accompanied by two 6th dans. They occasionally run courses for advanced jodo training. The previous prime requesite was that students would need to know all 12 seitei katas. Each course would attempt to instill one of the koryu sets or one of the auxilliary arts.

Currently in our dojo, we have informally adopted the same criteria - learn all the seitei and then you do koryu, although we occasionally teach something different if the mood takes us.

I remember a conversation with Ishido sensei 8th dan, who said something along the lines that there was a proper order to learning jodo and some of the things we take for granted e.g. learning SR kenjutsu used to be taught only to the mokuroku holders.

I think the order was something like this (it is almost certainly inaccurate as I am regurgitating this from memory)

Omote
Chudan
Kage
Samidare
<---Tanjo
Gohon no midare
Okuden
<---Kenjutsu
<---Jitte
<---Kusarigama
Hiden no gyoi
<---Hojojutsu

Or something like that. Anyway, you get the idea that most of the auxilliaries were only taught to the top exponents. Diane or Meik can probably add some clarity to this.

Anyway to answer your question, there is no formalised learning order, some of the dojos practise the auxilliary arts but they are few and far between (only about three or so out of five/six).

What about in the rest of the world?

[Meik Skoss]

Re: the order of techniques, A. Watson wrote: "I think the order was something like this (it is almost certainly inaccurate as I am regurgitating this from memory)
1. Omote
2. Chudan
3. Kage
4. Samidare
5. <--- Uchida-ryu tanjojutsu
6. Gohon no midare
7. Okuden
8. <---Shinto-ryu kenjutsu
9. <---Ikkaku-ryu jittejutsu
10. <---Isshin-ryu kusarigamajutsu
11. Hiden no gyoi
12. <---Ittatsu-ryu hojojutsu

That is basically correct. Two corrections on the Japanese: Firstly, it's jUtte with a U, not jItte with an I. Yes, there are some regional differences in pronunciation, but the way it's said in hyojungo, or Tokyo dialect, a.k.a. The Emperor's Japanese. Like with the BBC and the Queen's English. That's the way it's said, that's the way it's written. Secondly, it would be Hiden no gokui. And that's not something that gets taught to many people. There are only two non-Japanese (maybe four at this point) who know these techniques: Relnick and Krieger. While it's possible Lee Ah Loi has been taught them, I don't think it's very likely, at least not yet. But I could be wrong.

As far as the order of instruction is concerned, what Mr. Watson wrote is rather different from the way I learned the system, both in Japan and here in the U.S. Ran-ai is taught after Chudan and before Kage. As he mentioned, there is no set order for learning the fuzoku budo (affiliated systems), though one normally learns the Uchida-ryu tanjojutsu waza after learning Ran-ai.

Relnick Sensei has decided to introduce Shinto-ryu kenjutsu to his students after they've learned both shidachi and uchidachi sides of the Omote set. Generally, people are okuiri-sho before they do Isshin-ryu or Ikkaku-ryu. We don't do Ittatsu-ryu (Shimizu Sensei didn't teach that to very many people; I believe Kaminoda Sensei does teach people those techniques, but you'd have to ask Rick Polland about that).

Likewise, we in the Seiryukai, a group associated with Nishioka Tsuneo Sensei, don't do a whole lot of Seiteigata practice. We do not do the gendai budo "dan" thing, either. Licenses in the koryu are awarded to people with sufficient skill and training, but that's quite a different thing altogether, based upon the judgement of the menkyo kaiden who is capable of awarding them (Relnick and Krieger Senseis).

I guess the only other thing I can comment upon is the practice of teaching an entire set/fuzoku budo at a weekend seminar. That's a little much, I think, in that the sets in Shinto Muso-ryu are big (many of them have twelve techniques). It's not impossible, to be sure, but I wonder how well once could absorb/assimilate all that material. Certainly, when I teach, if somebody is capable of doing more than one new kata, I'll teach. But not an entire set; three or four at very most. But that's just my personal take. Autre temps, autre mores. And such.

Hope this helps.

[ulvulv]

Struggling with seite and kihon for some years, it is quite overwhelming to see what is available in the original smr-context. Seite is definetly the tip of an iceberg.
In addition I have done some omote, chuden and tanjo, and seen demonstrated kenjutsu and kusarigamma. It is really a full time study if you want to get into it. That much i have understood.:-)

[renfield_kuroda]

Since I don't actually practice anything other than sword, I can't comment much, but I do know that under NPO Hougyoku-kai, we have Shindomusoryu Jo, Touseiryu Tanjojutsu, Nihougon/Uchidaryu Tanjojutsu, Ikkakuryu Juttejutsu, Nakawaryu Tankenjutsu, and Isshinryu Kusarigamajutsu.
We are strongly encouraged to cross-train between the various weapons arts. As Niina-gosoke explains it, jo/tanjo users have much better understanding of maai than exclusively iai students, because of the constant practice with partners. Also, many of the kumitachi are sai/jo/tanjo/etc. vs. sword, so knowing how to properly handle both weapons (shidachi and uchidachi) is pretty important.

Regards,
renfield kuroda

[Andy Watson]

Meik

Thanks for the clarity. As for the jitte/jutte thing, that just shows how it's easier to pick up bad habits/pronounciation than it is to learn good.

As for the teaching of entire sets, Loi has to date I think only taught those sets with less than 10 forms in. Granted, there isn't much benefit in blasting students with them but I think this is done in sheer desperation as we don't get much of a chance to meet up and have a "high" grade practise. Certainly back at our own dojo we won't teach more than one or two kata's at a time.

Isn't it nice to be having a jo discussion again.


Regards

[SEAN CHEN]

My Dojo follows a little different format syllabus wise.
Omote, Chudan and Ranai are done first. Shidachi would be normally taught the Uchidachi role immediately after the completion of the latest set.

After Ranai is taught, TanjoJutsu is then introduced to "apparently" make life a little more interesting while the trainee works on Ranai for anything between 6 mths to a year. Depending on the instructor and the student. I was darft ...so I did take a year!

After Ranai, Kage is introduced to cool the fire of the trainee. Based on what I have done, man...Ranai and Kage are as different as heaven and hell. Kage does however does present the trainee with an eerie zanshin like frame of mind with fast and accurate controlled strikes. Its like having a split personality!

SR Kenjutsu is then taught to the trainee after Kage followed by Samidare, Gohon then Jutte jutsu followed by Okuden and finally by Isshin Ryu Kusarigama. I was told that in some groups, SR is introduced much much earlier. Its true that Itatsu Ryu hojojutsu is very rare and its a pity in my opinion not to be able to learn it.

There is a good basis for further SR Kenjustu discussion here.The thing about doing SMR is that in the past, trainees were assumed to have knowledge in kenjutsu and to be able to be quick at picking up secondary weapons. Uchidachis in those bygone days were then expected to provide the shidachi with an accurate simulation of a sword attack (educative role) and yet perfom the technique without actually killing the Shidachin in the process. An un-informed modern swordsman of today may mention that the Uchidachi technique is flawed... technique wise. It is true to some extent if he has no knowledge on the real educative role of uchidachi.

The problem most modern day Jo guys face (some admit more readily than others) is that because there is little avenue of koryu sword training prior to Jo practice, they cant really provide a realistic yet educative sword attack. The means of handling the sword, the targets and the riai is hence missing. This of course can be correted by a competent teacher. However, as we dont do sword practice as a proper discipline, it takes ages to fully understand the workings of a sword. Eg, just because you know how to handle a scaple does not mean you could do surgery on a person.

Just my honest opinion.

[Nashie]

Originally posted by ulvulv
In BKA, do many clubs practise the additional weapons in smr, like kenjutsu-jutte-kusarigamma tanjo etc..? Is there a norm of what level you should do jodo before doing one of the additional weapons, like seite-shoden-tanjo-chuden-kenjutsu and so on?

Andy Watson has already replied about the order that we try to teach in our dojo.
most of us in the BKA have learnt various forms as we go along depending on what visiting Japanese Sensei (or European for that matter) decide to teach, This has always varied on the level of the people at seminars,and what our weaknesses were.
In the early days when there was only about 100 jodo members training within the BKA with only a small core of them attending seminars. We were taught more techniques, but in no particular order with regards to omote, kage etc. even a few Tachi Uchi No Kurai seminars.
Now with the expansion of the jo bu. more people attend seminars with a lot more beginners showing there happy faces. So more time is spent on the seitei, often going over the same points seminar after seminar, to cater for the beginners.
Unfortunately this can be frustrating for the senior grades, but we normaly get pulled to pieces as well, on techniques we have been practising for years, so it is still good learning, in an ideal world our sports halls and cost of them, would allow us to have seperate dojo's for Seitei and Koryu.

Quote from A.Watson
.

Putting that question to the BKA is a very good one on the basis that myself and my sempai who is the jodo bucho think that the teaching of the auxilliary arts as well as correct seitei and the koryu in other BKA dojos is very inconsistent.

Mr.Watson has raised a good point here, as I am the Bucho mentioned above, I would like to get your thought's on how Jodo is considered in your countries or dojo's
Sadly it seems to be treated as a lesser art when compared to Kendo and even Iai in England, this is not true of all clubs, but probably the majority.
The inconsistencies we see, seem to stem from lack of practice ie. I have a grading soon better start Jodo again.
Non attendance at seminars etc.
Failure to stop and examine the technique, and understand it. ie. we just bash away through the kata, even though this block/trap/strike doesn't work (due to poor technique/understanding.) and as mentioned above being treated as inferior to other arts.
Harsh words but this is a problem that has plagued me in my role as bucho